I'm doing a lighting show for a concert at my local primary school and ill be using effect type lights and so smoke is essential to make it look good BUT ive heard that the smoke can sometiems set off smoke alarms. Ive also heard that this is crap and doesnt set them off.

anyway... the alarm at the school is very sencitive (for obvious reasons) and apparently can go off with jsuta bit of sawdust in the air (i dfont know if this is true tho becuase it would be a real pain if it was...) and also it is linked directly to the fire brigade and so if it goes off they automaticly come even if it was an accident...

so well... is there any chance that the smoke machine (with jsut a bit of smoke to enhance the show) could set off the fire alarm?

Thanks

Yes...and a very big risk.

Smoke detectors are not intelligent, and can't tell the difference between synthetic smoke and the real stuff!.

The sensible thing would be to contact the School / PTA and tell them exactly as you have told us:- that using a smoke machine is likely to evacuate the school, and call out the Fire Brigade!. I'm sure that they will disable the system, or at least the local sensor(s) to the production.

If they have done things like this in the past, then I'm sure that they will be ahead of you on this. If not, telling them now could save any embarrassment later

A mate of mine was working in a big hotel in Blackpool, he informed reception he was using a smoke machine and they said they would isolate the room..... guess what they didn't. so at about 11.30 the hotel had to evac and 3 fire engines turned up.

The bride would not pay the hotel, the hotel would not pay the agent and the agent wanted my mate to pay the agent his lost commission.

After 3 months the hotel admitted they cocked up and paid for the disco. So now in that hotel we use a form that the hotel duty manager signs to say he has been informed of the use of a smoke machine and confirms isolation of the alarm....

So be careful using smoke.

QUOTE (Chris_Pointon @ Jun 7 2003, 01:24 AM)

The sensible thing would be to contact the School / PTA and tell them exactly as you have told us:- that using a smoke machine is likely to evacuate the school, and call out the Fire Brigade!. I'm sure that they will disable the system, or at least the local sensor(s) to the production.

Which is i'm sure is illegal, and would invalidate their insurance

QUOTE (Ian Stewart @ Jun 7 2003, 10:40 AM)

QUOTE (Chris_Pointon @ Jun 7 2003, 01:24 AM) The sensible thing would be to contact the School / PTA  and tell them exactly as you have told us:- that using a smoke machine is likely to evacuate the school, and call out the Fire Brigade!. I'm sure that they will disable the system, or at least the local sensor(s) to the production. Which is i'm sure is illegal, and would invalidate their insurance

Depends on how large a gathering it is. If the building is a large one, with many rooms, floors, and office's such as a Hotel, then the fire system does have to be active 24/7, although individual sensors can be isolated provided that the room is occupied - i.e a function room.

Many, systems are installed for insurance rather than "people" purposes, in order to protect a BUILDING and act as an early warning of Fire and only need to be fully active when the building is unoccupied. A good example of this, is the NEC, Manchester Arena, Earls Court etc, where large numbers of people gather for concerts, yet you never see the stage smoke setting off the Alarms .

It all depends on the building and its application, you couldn't legally isolate an entire system, in a hotel for example, but it is nearly always possible to isolate the one or two sensors which apply to the room that you are working in, providing that room is occupied. A School, for example may only have the "Fire Call" (Break Glass) points active during the Day, but then have full fire detection switched in at night.

QUOTE (Chris_Pointon @ Jun 7 2003, 11:07 AM)

QUOTE (Ian Stewart @ Jun 7 2003, 10:40 AM) QUOTE (Chris_Pointon @ Jun 7 2003, 01:24 AM) The sensible thing would be to contact the School / PTA  and tell them exactly as you have told us:- that using a smoke machine is likely to evacuate the school, and call out the Fire Brigade!. I'm sure that they will disable the system, or at least the local sensor(s) to the production. Which is i'm sure is illegal, and would invalidate their insurance Depends on how large a gathering it is. If the building is a large one, with many rooms, floors, and office's such as a Hotel, then the fire system does have to be active 24/7, although individual sensors can be isolated provided that the room is occupied - i.e a function room. Many, systems are installed for insurance rather than "people" purposes, in order to protect a BUILDING and act as an early warning of Fire and only need to be fully active when the building is unoccupied. A good example of this, is the NEC, Manchester Arena, Earls Court etc, where large numbers of people gather for concerts, yet you never see the stage smoke setting off the Alarms . It all depends on the building and its application, you couldn't legally isolate an entire system, in a hotel for example, but it is nearly always possible to isolate the one or two sensors which apply to the room that you are working in, providing that room is occupied. A School, for example may only have the "Fire Call" (Break Glass) points active during the Day, but then have full fire detection switched in at night.

thanks,

but many places I have worked will not because of their insurance policies, and if the person concerned was caught he would probably lose his job

Well it looks like i wont be using smoke then... ill have to focus more on the gobo patterns than in-air beams of light... *sigh*

lol

Buy, or hire a haze machine, they are quite cheap nowaday, I think you could get one for £200 ish, Chris ???
This SHOULD solve the problem BUT notice I said SHOULD, make sure first with the school, Fire Brigade, Organisers and The Pope !!!!! Expensive habit having to pay 3 fire engines to turn up.

QUOTE

This SHOULD solve the problem BUT notice I said SHOULD

Well, there is more chance of a fog machine triggering the sensor than a Haze Machine, but the risk is still there.

If it was my decision, I would be talking to the School to get the local sensors isolated and confirmation of the fact. Failing that, I just simply wouldn't take the risk.

well when I go in to install the lighting I will see where the sensor is... there might not even be one in that room (the main hall)... Ive never noticed one before!... and seen as I will only be using a little smoke it might not matter if the sensor is at the other end of the room etc.

also i dont want to fork out on a hazer, it might be better for some things but kids love the smoke pouring out over them... great when u get a cheer because of it haha.

dont think i'll be using smoke...

but one more thing... surly nightclubs and so on have fire alarms... and would have to have them in there main room with all the equipment etc. so how comes they dont have this problem?

Just to answer the nightclub solution. I work as a maintainance man at our local club and it is currently undergoing a refit. So I asked the guys installing the new fire alarm system how they get around the smoke machine problem. What they're doing is dividing the whole building into zones, so when they are trading the main dance hall becomes disarmed. It works so that once the back door is locked at the night all the zones then become active. Simple innit!!

QUOTE

It works so that once the back door is locked at the night all the zones then become active. Simple innit!!

Yes, exactly as I thought and mentioned earlier. The fact that only a part guard or manual system is in operation during the occupied hours, and then the fully armed system with detectors comes into play during the periods when the building is unoccupied. Some even arm into full status when the intruder alarm is armed

The fact that the venue/school have mentioned that even sawdust in the air can trigger the alarm, sounds like its an Optical Sensor, rather than the older Ionisation type.

Optical types are prefered in older buildings, those with lots of fabric (tapestries, wall hangings etc) as they detect slower burning, smouldering types of fire.

Personally, I'd go with the No Smoke idea... I do plenty of venues with no smoke, Haze etc...and the kids simply LOVE chasing the Gobo's all over the walls and floors...much more than they appreciate the mid-air ravey laser tunnel effects that smoke would give them.

well the thing about that is that the lights will be centered on the stage and so noone can chase em around (as fun as it may seem it will ruin the performance if the 50 kids on stage all decided to run around after a gobo lol)... thats why I was hoping on smoke becuase it would give something more to look at rather than a bunch of moving gobos...

just one more thing, the school has said that they cant turn off the sensor to the hall because it would breech there safety regulations... whether this is the truth or not i dont know but i can hardly argue so I'll just have to do without it and hope the room is nice and dusty