Setting the scene for this dilemma – its 2007, and the no smoking in public places ban has rolled out to every public place – including village halls, pubs, social clubs, in fact everywhere that we hard working mobile DJ’s entertain our crowds.
In this scenario a “crazy” bit of legislation is passed by “the powers that be” and is confirmed to be brought into force in 2008, introduced perhaps due to a well publicised celebrity asthma attack caused by artificial haze. The legislation states that all types of theatrical smoke fluid are classed as “hazardous” and require an annual licence for use in venues designated as “Non-smoking” (yes, even though theres no tobacco in theatrical smoke).
The license is all encompassing to include the storage (upto 25litres), filling, decanting, and use of any type of smoke, haze, and heavy fog/dry-ice effect fluids. The licence covers ONE machine.
Pre-empting a plunge in popularity of these machines and all related fluids, the few remaining disco retailers are only stocking the fluids to special order, with a weeks notice. The retailers have been displaying signs about the impending license, next to their remaining smoke/haze machine displays, and leaflets inserted into boxes and warnings about "Use of this product requires a licence" etc.
What hasn’t been confirmed by the early warnings is the cost of the yearly licences, and of course the rumour mill has been churning out stories of anything from a trivial £50 per year, to insane prices.
Remember, the above “details” are not fact, they’re simply a “scene” set as part of this DJ Dilemma (so don’t panic just yet). However, its likely that public opinion, together with venue stipulations, both of which have been steadily increasing in stating that smoke/haze is not to be used, may influence your decision. The fact that you were also about to re-vamp your lightshow with a £1200 overhaul/spending spree after your Dec 2007 discos, might be worth mentioning too.
What would be the maximum amount that you, in the above scenario, would pay for a yearly license to own and run a smoke/haze, or low-fog machine?
Full Version: DJ Dilemma – my first of 2005-02-04
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Why not add the license fee into the price of the fluid, therefore, the more you use, the more you pay?
This saves the dodgers and makes it a level playing field.
This saves the dodgers and makes it a level playing field.
Hazer don't cause asthma, everyone thinks they do, but they don't!!!! 
Its the over use of smokemachines that give everybody that idea!!!!!
Shame on everyone who miss-uses theses effects, they are great and should only be used to show the light beams, not fill the room with a thick cloud of white smoke
Its the over use of smokemachines that give everybody that idea!!!!!
Shame on everyone who miss-uses theses effects, they are great and should only be used to show the light beams, not fill the room with a thick cloud of white smoke
its all about how you use these products and a licence is somthing that would make life even harder for the above board and sensible djs,
i agree with the misuse thing some people seem to have their finger stuck on the button for most of the night, or until they cant see the crowd then they think thats enough ! 
and this spoils it for the sensible users..
As for paying for a licence to use one ?? if this was the case i think i would not bother but like the idea of putting the cost on fluid !
and this spoils it for the sensible users..
As for paying for a licence to use one ?? if this was the case i think i would not bother but like the idea of putting the cost on fluid !
I go with Kingy on this one add the cost to the fluid.
| QUOTE (DJ_Ajay @ Feb 4 2005, 10:47 AM) |
| Hazer don't cause asthma, everyone thinks they do, but they don't!!!! Its the over use of smokemachines that give everybody that idea!!!!! Shame on everyone who miss-uses theses effects, they are great and should only be used to show the light beams, not fill the room with a thick cloud of white smoke |
Three or four months ago, I'd have probably not known enough of the real life experiences of Asthmatics at discos to correct you on that idea.
Unfortunately Smoke, Haze and even the chilled-smoke used in dry-ice simulating smoke machines, can all affect sufferers of Asthma.
There was an in-depth topic on this DJU thread from a couple of months ago. The post was compiled with the help and input from several members of a UK Asthma forum.
I do agree with you however that even visually, some DJ's do use too much smoke, and rely heavily, almost to addictive degrees, on smoke/haze being a "must have" - it isnt.
The post also covers Epilepsy and how it isnt just strobes which can effect them, many of todays so-called intelligent lights are potential triggers.
I was less than impressed to see that another disco had gone to one of those forums and tried the same line of questioning, with his roadshow name slapped all over his questions - touting for business, piggy-backing on the suffering of others. When I posted there I deliberately only gave my first name, and no disco/roadshow contact details as I didnt want to get any bookings from Epilepsy/Asthma suffers purely on the back of asking some thoughtful questions.
I too agree that levying the price of the smoke/haze fluid would be a great way to collect any such license fees. Although the only disadvantage of either the license, or the fluid levy, is that someone with more money than sense, can still keep their finger on the button all night.
I would convert back to the enviromentaly friendly dry ice machine of the 80s ! 
This is the current legislation with regard to using smoke machines in public. The details are comprehensive but I have limited the information quoted here to the machines which are used by the Mobile DJ - namely Glycol and Oil based machines.
This information applies to all public use of machines, whether you are a DJ or a full scale production and whether you are using a 6kw treble pump type or a 400w minimist. This should also prove useful to anybody requiring to provide a risk assessment of their roadshow.
This information applies to all public use of machines, whether you are a DJ or a full scale production and whether you are using a 6kw treble pump type or a 400w minimist. This should also prove useful to anybody requiring to provide a risk assessment of their roadshow.
| QUOTE |
| However the smoke or vapour effect is produced, certain requirements remain constant. Work with smoke effects will be subject to the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations 1994 (COSHH) if adverse health effects are possible. An assessment should be carried out on the substances used to produce the smoke and on the smoke itself. The risks identified in these assessments must be eliminated or controlled so far as is reasonably practicable. Any person operating such effects should be provided with appropriate information and training. Suppliers and manufacturers should provide the required information on demand to allow you to complete your assessment. If there is any doubt about the level of exposure that may result from using a particular effect, on-site monitoring should be used. These assessments should consider all those people who may be affected, not just the machine operators but also the artists, the audience and other employees; special attention should be given to those who may be affected more severely, e.g. children, asthmatics and the elderly. The first priority is to eliminate the risks, e.g. by using effects that contain no harmful substances. Smoke effects should be under the control of people competent in that activity. Good planning and regular maintenance is essential in the safe use of these effects. The risk assessment should be discussed with the person in charge of the production. People involved in the production should be warned in advance that smoke effects are to be used |
Of particular interest to DJ's may be the following:-
| QUOTE |
| Always use the minimum amount of smoke required Ventilate areas well immediately after use Keep people away from areas in front of all machines since concentrations are at their highest here As operators have no control over the composition of their audiences special care needs to be taken to minimise risks to the audience. Exposure to the effects should ideally be avoided altogether. The person in charge of the production should know if smoke is likely to reach the audience. If this is the case the following precautions should be considered: Direct and control smoke effects to the desired place to prevent overspill into audience areas Warning notices on the premises (reinforced by verbal warnings if this is considered necessary) All warnings should indicate the type of persons who may be particularly at risk. |
In Particular, I am wondering how the following quote will affect us, as the machine operators
Exposure to the effects should ideally be avoided altogether. The person in charge of the production should know if smoke is likely to reach the audience
This basically advises that smoke should be kept away from both the audience and the machine oeprator. Not good news if you are intending to spray large amounts of smoke onto a filled dancefloor.
*Credit:- All information has been sourced from the HSE Website and BBC Education & Training Websites
| QUOTE (DJ_Ajay @ Feb 4 2005, 11:47 AM) |
| Hazer don't cause asthma, everyone thinks they do, but they don't!!!! Its the over use of smokemachines that give everybody that idea!!!!! Shame on everyone who miss-uses theses effects, they are great and should only be used to show the light beams, not fill the room with a thick cloud of white smoke |
I suffer from asthma - only mildly, but 1 of my roadies is a real asthmatic and he packs the gear away while i load the van !! But smoke (of any kind) doesn't affect us. But if i am in a tobaco smoke filled room i tend to have breathing difficulties. And as i don't smoke, i would welcome a smoking ban, but if it was sensible. No smoking in a public place is too general... outside is a public place! so when your walking down the road, you cant smoke??? stupid.
As for the filling the room type of DJ, that might work in a hard house club, or illeagal Rave... but not a wedding, family disco, 50th etc.... Moderation and common sense is the key!I have 3 types of machine and not one affects me.
| QUOTE |
| I would convert back to the enviromentaly friendly dry ice machine of the 80s ! |
Hmm... another safety concern though... If you use REAL dry ice (which for those of you that were no good at chemistry) is CO2, or a CO2 based unit... its not so safe when someone passes out on the floor!!
I cant see the extremes of the smoking ban is going to have much weight with smoke machines. Plus Clubs, village halls, and anywhere that public cant go without a ticket or paying entry will be exempt. So the theatre and clubs will be exempt, as for village halls... you could argue the toss.. if its a private party, then you could smoke. but if it was a public event, then you couldn't !!!
I think all places should set aside an area for smoking - many bars still have a smoking room, so why not make the lounge bar a non smoking area? There are enough suppliers and fitters of air cleaners and extractor fans around.
What we need is some university boffins on the case. a case study into the effect os various types of smoke.
| QUOTE (MadGutts @ Feb 4 2005, 12:29 PM) |
| What we need is some university boffins on the case. a case study into the effect os various types of smoke. |
Some of the information that I gained on the other forums was from people in medical backgrounds.
There are obviously different degrees of suffering, and supseptability for anyone suffering from any triggerable condition. Its this variety which makes it so difficult for sometimes even the sufferers themselves to know what will, and wont cause problems.
eg:
Person "A" in a cool, well ventilated room with a big old smoke machine might suffer no problems at all.
Person "B" in a hot room, with just a hazer, finds themselves in difficulties...
or vice versa - everyones different - and we play to everyone.
I personally wouldn't bother with the licence and retire the smoke machine! I use it around 3 times a year at a local youth club in a village hall which is probably one of the only venues that I can use it at now.
Regarding the upgrade of the lightshow this is a very valid point for most who have used a smoke machine properly in the past, agree how much it enhances the lights and are now not allowed due to misuse by a small minority.
With the lights Im using now I can, and do, get by without any smoke...it's something I could take or leave now.
Steve
Regarding the upgrade of the lightshow this is a very valid point for most who have used a smoke machine properly in the past, agree how much it enhances the lights and are now not allowed due to misuse by a small minority.
With the lights Im using now I can, and do, get by without any smoke...it's something I could take or leave now.
Steve
I would probably ditch the smoke machine if this kind of legislation comes about. As it is, I hardly ever take out my smoke machine now anyway.
Recently, I did a gig in a venue where the amount of dust kicked up showed up my lightshow really well. How about a dust machine?
Recently, I did a gig in a venue where the amount of dust kicked up showed up my lightshow really well. How about a dust machine?
where is the " never use a smoke machine so I don't give a monkeys" option
| QUOTE (Ian Stewart @ Feb 4 2005, 02:25 PM) |
| where is the " never use a smoke machine so I don't give a monkeys" option |
Well, that would suggest that you went for the last option, years ago...
eg:
| QUOTE |
| Nothing - I'd sell my machine and get more versatile lighting |
I am Asthmatic and take regular doses of steriods to keep it under control.
Any form of air polution will cause us all to react to it. Those of us that are sensitive to such things suffer more. You do not neccessarly have to have an ailment to suffer.
Regular smokers are less likely to be effected than non smokers, Their lungs are already poluted and their bodies have built up a tolerance to air bourne polution.
When risk assessments are done the risks are catagorized and the ways to reduce the risks are explored. When you wiegh up the risk of possibilities
Discomfort
Asthma or other broncial (sp) sufferers having an attack
Death
And look at the way to remove those risks
Dont use smoke or Haze Machines
The answer is simple
Dont use smoke or Haze Machines
No I am not biased I do like the effects that can be created and I personally am prepared to accept the risk to me but not to others
Jimbo
Any form of air polution will cause us all to react to it. Those of us that are sensitive to such things suffer more. You do not neccessarly have to have an ailment to suffer.
Regular smokers are less likely to be effected than non smokers, Their lungs are already poluted and their bodies have built up a tolerance to air bourne polution.
When risk assessments are done the risks are catagorized and the ways to reduce the risks are explored. When you wiegh up the risk of possibilities
Discomfort
Asthma or other broncial (sp) sufferers having an attack
Death
And look at the way to remove those risks
Dont use smoke or Haze Machines
The answer is simple
Dont use smoke or Haze Machines
No I am not biased I do like the effects that can be created and I personally am prepared to accept the risk to me but not to others
Jimbo
Hi
Minimize the risk completely by not using smoke or haze.
Venues don't like it...
Punters don't really like it either...
It's only kids and DJ's that give a toss.
Darren
Minimize the risk completely by not using smoke or haze.
Venues don't like it...
Punters don't really like it either...
It's only kids and DJ's that give a toss.
Darren
Only use either of mine occassionally, would still pay upto £100 as some gigs need smoke as requested.
I agree with Steve, Brian, Ian and Darren who cares about smoke.
I think in the scheme of things they are better left out of the show as most modern venues that we work won't allow them anyway and it makes no difference to our gigs. It's the music that matters really. Our lights look fine without the smoke.
Mick
I think in the scheme of things they are better left out of the show as most modern venues that we work won't allow them anyway and it makes no difference to our gigs. It's the music that matters really. Our lights look fine without the smoke.
Mick
venues who say no to smoke do so becuase they fear there fire protection systems will go off....
there is a venue who says no to any other dj apart from me when it comes to smoke useage.
why ? becuase there are a few who go way over the top and cause problems.....
there is a venue who says no to any other dj apart from me when it comes to smoke useage.
why ? becuase there are a few who go way over the top and cause problems.....
| QUOTE (DJ Marky Marc @ Feb 4 2005, 05:55 PM) |
| venues who say no to smoke do so becuase they fear there fire protection systems will go off.... |
And if their clients have asked them to ensure the DJ refrains from using haze/smoke etc.
Hazers won't effect you at all!!!! It a myth that they will trigger asthma!!
Smoke machines are can trigger asthma, because its thicker than haze and can be seen by the person with asthma, then they panic and the basicly bring it on them selves. (Because the room will become hotter, with the bodies on the dance floor and they blame the smoke for there discomfort) Don't get me wrong, if some came up to me and said that I have asthma and the smoke is effecting me, I would take them outside and say I don't use smoke machines, but hazers which don't effect you and hand them a chart for the hazer.
It's like thinking sharks will eat you whole, they attack us by mistake and you have more chance of dying from a falling coconut!!!
Same with strobes, you have to run the strobe for like 5 to 10min to send someone epelptic! Anyway if you ran a strobe for 10mins in a closed room, you would gas your self with the ozone gas they give off.
Smoke fro ciggers on the other had does effect asthma!! the cemicals that are in it are posion!!
Smoking where I am is being band in pubs and clubs, which is good because we never used to need much haze, because 100's of smokers in a room will do the job for you!!!
Smoke machines are can trigger asthma, because its thicker than haze and can be seen by the person with asthma, then they panic and the basicly bring it on them selves. (Because the room will become hotter, with the bodies on the dance floor and they blame the smoke for there discomfort) Don't get me wrong, if some came up to me and said that I have asthma and the smoke is effecting me, I would take them outside and say I don't use smoke machines, but hazers which don't effect you and hand them a chart for the hazer.
It's like thinking sharks will eat you whole, they attack us by mistake and you have more chance of dying from a falling coconut!!!
Same with strobes, you have to run the strobe for like 5 to 10min to send someone epelptic! Anyway if you ran a strobe for 10mins in a closed room, you would gas your self with the ozone gas they give off.
Smoke fro ciggers on the other had does effect asthma!! the cemicals that are in it are posion!!
Smoking where I am is being band in pubs and clubs, which is good because we never used to need much haze, because 100's of smokers in a room will do the job for you!!!
| QUOTE (DJ_Ajay @ Feb 5 2005, 01:31 AM) |
| Hazers won't effect you at all!!!! It a myth that they will trigger asthma!! |
Sorry Ajay, this assumption is incorrect. Whether physically, or psychosematically(sp?) any airbourne contamenant including haze can trigger some asthmatics.
Asthmatics themselves have confirmed this.
Its not 100% safe to use hazers at every gig.
I will stand to be questioned on that one,
but alest in oz there not thinking of restricting hazers and smokemachines
but alest in oz there not thinking of restricting hazers and smokemachines
| QUOTE |
| Hazers won't effect you at all!!!! It a myth that they will trigger asthma!! |
Sorry Ajay, I am sure that your statemant is well meant but I HAVE been admitted to hospital in a particulary bad attack triggered by MAXIMUM use of haze. I am fully to blame for the decision I made to go into a club (as a punter) where haze was being vented countinuosly. Even my mates asked if i would be ok. Notices were posted stateing that smoke/haze was being used.
"I dont hold anyone responsible other than myself"
I made a choice..
You see warning notices on:
Theme park rides (blood and heart etc)
Tv, Cinema, Theater, Live acts, Clubs and Disco's (Stobe effects)
It allows people to make an informed choice.
It also covers you.
As yet there is no law banning the use of haze or smoke. With informed intelligent use (sticking to guidlines) and informed choice (easily read notices). it will probably stay that way.
Hazers are LESS LIKELY to affect. In my own opinion. I do agree that there is an element of panic and fear about smoke and the uniformed. So a well prepared statement as you suggested Ajay is a very good idea. Preferably with the HSE guidance attatched.
Communication, information, education
Jimbo
So, should hazers/smoke machines come with a selectionn of warning signs for DJs and venues to stick up around the dancefloor and entrances?
As mentioned above, fixed venues display warning signs, mobiles dont.;.even though we're using virtually identical fluids, into the same airways, usually in less well ventilated conditions.
Even outside of this "dilemma" scenario, thats something that we could, and should address now.
As mentioned above, fixed venues display warning signs, mobiles dont.;.even though we're using virtually identical fluids, into the same airways, usually in less well ventilated conditions.
Even outside of this "dilemma" scenario, thats something that we could, and should address now.
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE (Ian Stewart @ Feb 4 2005, 02:25 PM) where is the " never use a smoke machine so I don't give a monkeys" option Well, that would suggest that you went for the last option, years ago... eg: QUOTE Nothing - I'd sell my machine and get more versatile lighting |
or it could suggest that i've never owned a smoke machine
I voted between £100 & £150 a year.
Whilst I agree that it is best to have a versatile light show that can also work well without haze, I think that the most dramatic light shows are ones with moving beam effects and haze.
The key is using the minimum amount of haze (not smoke) possible. - To the point where you can't see any haze in the air, other than in the beams of light from the effects.
I can understand you guys getting rid of your smoke and haze machines - I, myself, am only able to use haze at around a third of gigs. But it still makes all the difference to the light show. Moving gobo patterns projected on to walls just don’t have the impact of 3D moving beams in the air. (Yes, I do make sure they don’t shine in guests eyes.)
Whilst I agree that it is best to have a versatile light show that can also work well without haze, I think that the most dramatic light shows are ones with moving beam effects and haze.
The key is using the minimum amount of haze (not smoke) possible. - To the point where you can't see any haze in the air, other than in the beams of light from the effects.
I can understand you guys getting rid of your smoke and haze machines - I, myself, am only able to use haze at around a third of gigs. But it still makes all the difference to the light show. Moving gobo patterns projected on to walls just don’t have the impact of 3D moving beams in the air. (Yes, I do make sure they don’t shine in guests eyes.)
| QUOTE |
| So, should hazers/smoke machines come with a selectionn of warning signs for DJs and venues to stick up around the dancefloor and entrances? |
I don't know about you guys, but I always put up a warning sign, same with the strobe. Its normal something like this:
CAUTION STROBE AND HAZER EFFECTS ARE USED.
PLEASE SEE DJ FOR MORE INFOMATION.
Have used smoke machines in the past - then remembered I have two in the shed I could have given away at the DJU M.A.X.!!!!!
I agree that the trend for licensed venues who do not like the use of smoke machines, varients, fluid based machines, strobes and even lasers (yep) is increasing.
I'm happy to go along with any reasonable request like this - and have done for a few years now.
No bubbles, smoke, snow or strobes!
I agree that the trend for licensed venues who do not like the use of smoke machines, varients, fluid based machines, strobes and even lasers (yep) is increasing.
I'm happy to go along with any reasonable request like this - and have done for a few years now.
No bubbles, smoke, snow or strobes!
[QUOTE]I agree that the trend for licensed venues who do not like the use of smoke machines, varients, fluid based machines, strobes and even lasers (yep) is increasing.
No bubbles, smoke, snow or strobes![QUOTE]
I can't belive this.... I understand about mobile work, but clubs!!! 
personal I think things like this are starting to get out of hand. Don't know about in the uk but if you hit you kid on the bum for stealling the cookie from the cookie jar, u get take by the police!!!! Butchers are getting sued for saying 'Rack' of lamb chops, because women think its refering to other things besides the lamb. If a person breaks into your house and cuts them selves on the shattered glass, they sue you!!!!
This world is getting worse evry day, y can't people lighten up and enjoy life
No bubbles, smoke, snow or strobes![QUOTE]
I can't belive this.... I understand about mobile work, but clubs!!! personal I think things like this are starting to get out of hand. Don't know about in the uk but if you hit you kid on the bum for stealling the cookie from the cookie jar, u get take by the police!!!! Butchers are getting sued for saying 'Rack' of lamb chops, because women think its refering to other things besides the lamb. If a person breaks into your house and cuts them selves on the shattered glass, they sue you!!!!This world is getting worse evry day, y can't people lighten up and enjoy life
| QUOTE (DJ_Ajay @ Feb 8 2005, 03:43 AM) |
| [QUOTE]I agree that the trend for licensed venues who do not like the use of smoke machines, varients, fluid based machines, strobes and even lasers (yep) is increasing. No bubbles, smoke, snow or strobes![QUOTE] I can't belive this.... I understand about mobile work, but clubs!!! |
Part of the reason for this increase in venues saying no to things that can trigger a medical, and indeed occasionally fatal response in people, is perhaps the increase in litigation/legal claims, including those "No win, no fee" type companies.
The first time that some people find out that they are a sufferer of Asthma, or Photo-sensitive Epilespy for example, is often when they have their first attack.
Occassionally, that first attack, unable to be countered by medication, as the victim didn't know at that stage that they even needed medication, can be fatal. There was such a case on an Epilepsy forum late last year of a school child dying at a school disco during their first epileptic fit/attack. Neither the child, their parents, teachers, or of course, the unfortunate DJ - knew of the childs condition, or knew that certain precautions should have been taken with regard to certain lighting effects - eg: "intelligent" and strobes.
With the above incident in mind, it would be prudent to exclude strobes (and strobing gobo effects) and smoke from school disco's and other potential "first disco" situations. I've got a kids party coming up in a fortnight and wont be using smoke, haze or strobes.
| QUOTE |
| Hazer don't cause asthma, everyone thinks they do, but they don't!!!! |
Smoke and haze can affect asthmatics. I found this out at a childrens party the other week. I was being careful about anly using smoke in small amounts but I had to give up with the smoke as it was making a lad very wheezy.
It also sets my asthma off if I really over do it!
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