So you guys/gals thought you were so wise when you tried to turn me against
Pioneer, well my friends.... you won, DENON it is.
Went through there forum which I must admit I found interesting and informative
Advice was been given out by there 'Own' Denon guru and thats a seious bonus.

I was however a bit surprised to see other people vigourously standing up for the
Pioneer group, wether it was Pioneer themselves intigating I dont know, but judging
by their 'own' Pioneer forum all is not well and advice from their own in house DJ
is at most times sort of bordering on the negative side of giving advice on certain
issues regarding use of and problems with the MKIIs.

I dont want to start a 'Heated Debate' about Pioneer and Im adding this topic so
that future readers will see for themselves that it certainly pays to browse the web
for info and ask questions, hear what other people have to say before buying any
product but my last bit of advice is do buy what you really want to buy its your
given right

I have not at all felt that I must go and buy the DENON's I just feel that what has
been said was enough to convince and you know what the best thing was.......
There was no commision grabbing salesman to divert me from what I decided to
go for..

Thanks alot to everyone who in the past provided excellent and a times mind
blowing advice, but not all was true, DENON does have a few problems but very
minor ones..

Cheers (I'll edit later if there's spelling milkshakes) got cha

Gary will be pleased !

So far got a price of £615 wonder what they'll do for a pair, umm will have to ask,
no ask no know, gee do I love our digital world of communicating.

I'll add replys as I go, 'cos I enjoy it

I live in ....................................
...............................................
...............................................
Milton Keynes
(**** hole)

not for long I hope as Spain beckons

Should have asked this yonks ago, which is better the DN S3000 or the DN S5000
cos looking at the DENON website it looks as if the DN S3000 is the newer model

Heeeeeeelllllppppp

Sorry to spoil the party guys BUT i would not touch denons with a barge pole, Luckily the clubs i work at changed from denons to pioneer.I have used pioneer for the last 5 years and love em to bits and havent had any problems.The last time i used denons was over five years ago and unless something terrible happens and every other cd manufacturer in the world shuts down,i wont be using them again.Sorry Gary but i have had a few bad ones with denon.

I wasn't going to throw my wet blanket into the ring either, but, since C.S has made the effort, then i'm not going to let his, be a lone voice in a sea of, perhaps, false, optimism.

Personally I wouldn't use a Denon either, due to some very nasty experiences in the past. (Just because I sell them, doesn't mean that I have to like them, or leave my personal opinion on the sidelines! - Manufacturers take note!).

Equally whilst Pioneer is overpriced, so is Denon although maybe the lessor of the two!. Other than the features - most of which are software driven, there is nothing special about either of them, lets face it they are just cashing in on their name.

If you only use a CD Player, to play CD's then many of the features on both machines will be of little use to you. These players were the bogsdollocks when Anti-Shock mechanism's were something of a black art!, however most £200 machines now have the one feature which is of use to every D.J!. Like C.S, I also found the Denon's I personally owned to be less than reliable, being outshone and outlived for many years by a pair of £39 domestic ones which were produced by a Washing Machine manufacturer .

With regard to recent units , I have just had an email from a customer whom has just taken delivery of a shiny brand new DN-D9000. More complaints! and another return, believe me, buying Denon does not give you exclusive admission to a problem free life!. This week I have had more returns from so called High End Manufacturers than I have from the budget range!.

So they offer firmware upgrades via CD, is this really a feature?. This could mean that they actually Anticipate future problems!, but don't want the hassle of re-calling them / paying dealers to carry out any upgrades!. A word of warning, never rush out and buy a brand new unit as soon as it is released - often there are several "upgrades" before any problems are corrected, and technically by being the first to own one, means that you are more likely to encounter problems and have to put up with any issues whilst they are ironed out.

Some of the earlier Denon Models were rushed onto the market, and proved to be very embarrassing, and hence, quickly superceeded by a New model!.

Don't be put off by this if you really want a CD Player full of features that you'll know will be used at every gig, and you have £600 - £1300 to throw onto a dual / two single Cd Player(s). All i'm saying is don't convince yourself that by spending this amount of money makes you in someway immune to any reliability problems. The old adage about more features = more to go wrong is essentially true with any Electronic Equipment. Some people have posted that their Denons have lasted for 5 years - so has my own mid priced Stageline, and hire stock of £200 basic machines.

It's like the old arguments of years ago....remember???

Quadrophonic was the new sound?!
Starsky was better than Hutch?!
Bodie was better than Doyle?
K9 was better than the Doctor?
Eagle 1 was better than Eagle 2?
Sally James was better looking than Kim Wilde?!
Grills are better than toasters?!
Beetamax was better than VHS?!
The ZX81 was a sophisticated home computer?!
The Sinclair QL was the next generation home computer?!
The Jupiter Ace and Lynx would be around for ever?!
The Atari was better than the Intellivision?!
The Commodore 64 was better than the Spectrum?!
'Jetpac' was the best game ever?
The BBC Micro had the best game 'Elite'?!
'Impossible Mission' was the best game ever?
'Pac-Man' was better than 'Pit Fall'?!
New Romantic music was better than Disco?
The Atari ST had far more games than the Amiga?!
The Amiga was the better machine?!
The Atari had a built in midi interface?!
The Amiga had the 'Bouncing Ball' Demo and Stereo Sound?!
The Mac was better than the PC?!
Rocky was better than Rambo?!
The Predator would whoop the Alien's ass?!
Tyson was better than ALi?!
Floppy discs were better than tape loaders?!
The Commodore Pet was better than the Vic 20?!
The N64 was better than the Playstation?!
A Tandy Mic was better than any other???!
Karaoke would die out?
Mobile Disco gear was going to condense in size?!
Technics were better than sliced bread...?!
Citronic are better than Soundlab?!
Peavy are better than JBL?!
CD's were going to kill off vinyl?!
Laptops would overtake Decks?!
OTS is better than PCDJ?!
The Denon Tape Deck was better than Kenwood's?!
Sony seperates were better than Technics?!
and don't ever forget...
Denon is better than Pioneer

Erm......................

I had the only professional twin MD player on the market, it cost over £1000, didn't like to be transported, didn't like some makes of MD's and was made by Denon

And didn't the early CD Denon's used to get quite hot?

That's it! I remember the saying, ....

You must never put 2 Denons back to back.



(Come to think of it - You musn't put two CDJ100's back to back either!)

Confusion confusion, Im taking what 'Chris Pointon' had to say very seriously
regarding the DENONS, **** man I thought I had it all sussed out, oh well what
do I do, very true what he said about owning acheap cd player, I owned a
GOLDSTAR when Cd players first hit the market and this player lasted me well
over 7 years of loyal service, it was banged, it moved with me from coast to
coast and just dug in and said Im yours froever (how romantic) it did finaly give
up but was due to being pushed to the limits, the unit was used as a backup in
our mobile rig for three years prior to it giving up, thats when there was only
pop music to mix, easy simple and done.

But Im not done here, where do I go from here, why have DENON and Pioneer
made a product that has problems, as if any product doesnt.
Should I resort back to Pioneer MKIIs, they've been around a good few months
and if I do buy the MKIIs how do I know Im getting the latest production run
and not some stock item thats hanging about in some internet stores stock, where
as the DENON has been about for awhile and its CD updates make sense, at least
problems can be solved.

Or should I just go back to proper DJing and spin the vinyl, nah I doubt it.

Basically what i'm saying is, that its very easy to buy a extremely expensive CD Player with features that you will never really have a use for, purely under the impression that by paying £700 you are getting something with PROVEN reliability.

In essence you stand just as much of a risk of a Denon / Pioneer developing a fault, as you would any other CD Player - even a domestic one. I don't see Denon or any other high end manufacturer offering a 5 or 10 year warranty against their products, so they don't actually gurantee their products beyond that minimum period offered by other manufacturers, even the el-chepo ones!!.

I don't condone anybody using £39 CD Players for professional use either , but in the real world they can prove just as reliable as the £1000 ones. All i'm saying is that if you use a CD Player purely to play CD's and not do any fancy mixing or clever trickery, then is £700 really a viable investment?, when a £300 one could probably do the same job?.

It's an ever changing market place, and the Denon's / Pioneers of the world won't have the monopoly that they've enjoyed for many years for much longer. Other manufacturers are rapidly catching up (look at what is on the market now compared with 5 years ago). Years ago the Denon 2000-F was a £1000 masterpiece that was an industry standard, and got acclaim, simply because with CD technology in its infancy there was nothing to rival it. The 2000-f won awards, and why?, because there was nothing to compare it AGAINST , I know from experience, it was the worst Cd Player I ever owned!.

Hmmm Damned if I do, damned if I dont... here goes the post that you knew would be coming...(since I've got 4 Denon CD-decks, and a Denon mixer turning up this weekend-ish)....

With the exception of the one, new DN-D9000 which Chris mentioned (and lets face it, no manufacturer can guarantee 0% Dead-on-arrival kit), one thing that has been consistant through this post, and indeed others, is that when people talk about a problem that they've had with a Denon, its always in the past tense, and a good few years ago at that.

The 2000, and 2500's were both, what 8 years old? 10 years old++? The problem: Software.

Denon pinpointed what its main problem was, and corrected it. As Chris points out, most of todays units are software driven, and user updatable software on all four of the current Denon models ensures that even if you buy the first unit off of the production line, you dont get stuck with a dodo - you simply download the latest software enhancements, burn it to CDRW (or CDR of course), and 2 minutes later, your machines software is the same as one thats just rolled off of the production line. If a 120 minute blank CDR got invented/released next week, Denons would be the only unit to be able to play them, without a trip back to a factory (did you keep all your packing? ), just a bit of writing/testing time at Denon, and a quick download & burn at the users end.

Even Denon's new DN-X1500 mixer takes this important user feature on-board - literally on-board, its got a USB socket for downloading new studio effects, and adding enhancements to the overall performance of the mixer. OK, a software upgrade isnt going to suddenly double the length of the sampler, or give you 4 extra input channels - obviously thats all hardware. However, if a teething trouble is discovered at any stage of a current Denon units usage, Denon can write a patch and get it out free to the users via the internet - total time that you're "without" your unit? = about 2 minutes whilst the software loads - which is slightly better than boxing the unit up and loosing it for 2~4 weeks for a firmware upgrade, which would be the normal on most other manufacturers machines.

As for the parts that arn't software driven, the moving parts - obviously Denon's got that covered too, with all their current units offering user-replacable, slot-in drives. I carry one spare drive with me, if either drive in my DN-D9000, or either of my DN-S5000's started playing up one night in the future, I could undo 4 screws, slide the old drive out, unplug 2 computer-like cables (power & data just like a CD-rom drive), slot the new one in, and start using it again 4 minutes later.

Sure, even with the software and the CD-drives reliability "covered", a unit can still go wrong inside - but thats true of any other manufacturer too - at least Denon have removed two potential problem area's, which all other manufacturers suffer from equally. I've got a Denon 2600F (dual rackmount CD), a Denon DN-D9000(dual rackmount CD), and a pair of DN-S5000 (Single tabletop CD-decks) and, in total honesty, nothing has failed with any of them, I've not even had to use the spare slot-in drive on any of them - and thats with all of them in mobile usage, rolled across fl,fl,fl,fl,fl,a,a,a,gstones...etc.

As for features, thats par for the course. True, not everyone will use a built-in sampler (or 2), or Seamless Splice, or "Dump" (which is great for disguising rude words in tracks like "Shut up", and even "Greased Lightning"), but its nice t have the features there if you're the sort of DJ who would use them. Sure, some DJ's will be happy with "PLAY" "STOP" and "EJECT", some a few more features, just like Cellphones, VCR's, PC's etc, etc.

Certainly one feature which I use several times, every gig, is Alpha track - the ability to play/cue/mix two tracks off of the same CD at the same time...With the number of compilation albums that are out now, (or should I say "NOW 56") and the high cost of CD-singles, we all use compilation albums, and inevitably, you're playing track 2 and realise that you could really do with playing track 17 next...no problem with alphatrack - once you've used it, you'll miss it when you play somewhere that hasnt got it.

And onto ChrisMK's dilema of which units to buy, yes, its a big step £600 ~ £1200 on a pair of cd-decks (although he's effectively getting 4 decks, once Alphatrack and Hotdisc are included), but the same money gets you either a pair of Denon's, or a pair of Pio's...and you never know when you'll want some feature from the Denon's which the Pioneers (based on 5 year old technology) dont offer. If anyone felt that the DN-S5000 was great but, they wanted something simpler (a cut down version), then theres the DN-S3000.

I understand that Chris is saying, indeed, I would agree if anyone said that a £400 CD deck isnt neccessarily twice as reliable as a £200 cd-deck, however I think that we're all above believing that a current model from any manufacturer was to be avoided, simply because the model which that manufacturer made 5 or 10 years ago had problems. Thats R&D Evolution for you.

Well I suppose like grays you prob knew this was coming to well unlike Gary I really do like pioneer(sorry Gary ) yes they are over priced but I have never had any probs with my djm 500s and my djm500 mixer as you may know I also own denon dns-5000 before I got my denon I walked in to a dj shop and said I want 2 buy pioneer 1000s the shop owner said why I said coz they are the best cd player (I had not heard of denon's new deck at that time) he showed me both and the denon in my opinion blew the pioneer deck away so I went away and did just like Chrismk is doing now and looked on some dj forums for advice and just like you I had good arguments for both so in the end I had to look at what was best for me and seeing as I had mixed for a long time on a pair of technics 1210s I thought the moving platter would be best plus the denon had countless other features over the pio.

I totally agree with Chris about thinking spending lots of money means you are getting what you need I still use my plain old pioneer 500s for mobilng coz I hardly ever use any feature on it other than stop start and the pitch fader because most mobile gigs do not need you to scratch or loop or sample ect... like on my denon . but seeing as I dj in clubs as well I take my denon and I can get really creative with it as it does so much it adds a new dimension to my sets also im a sucker for gadgets but if you want this to just go mobiling with I would say don't bother yet if you want to give your self every opportunity to be that bit different with your mixing then go for the denon.

I bet poor old Chrismk is really confused now!.

It might seem strange to some people, that with a forum of almost 1300 members, we cant say "Dear Member..the best cd~deck for you is the...." but as has been mentioned previously, the only person who can definately be sure of exactly the right model for ChrisMk, is....ChrisMk.

Tops marks to Chrismk for doing his purchase homework away from any of the high street DJ emporiums, with their commission driven sales guys only recommending the kit thatll get their toes onto Ibizaian sand...Chrismk has posted onto at least 2 forums that Im aware of(3, if you include that one~sided bias that Pioneer call a forum, which has all non~pioneer brand names in the "bad word" filter). At this point, its best that he try to find somewhere thats got both units in stock and (the latest version) on display, wired up, ready to go. (Hint: take you own CD® with you).

Short of designing the Sci~fi favourite "Auto~repair circuits", I think that Denons user~replacable slot~in drives and user~loadable software, Denon get top marks for designing reliability into their last 4 DJ products over the last 3 years.

Also, Denon again, for upto date, modern features. You'd be forgiven for thinking that Pioneer had given up on the DJ cd~deck market about 4 years ago...their CDJ1000mkII has no new, seperate, features over its MK1 older brother, except that the digital out now works when the pitch is off zero, a feature which the current Denons have always had.

It seems that Chrismk wants more than Play, cue and next/prev track, else he wouldnt have looked at spending £600 or more per deck. Being mobile, shouldnt restrict anyones desire to be creative, or limit their choice of features, indeed some of todays features are perfect for mobiles. As well as us all finding the track we want to play next, being further on, on the cd that we're playing already(alphatrack), im sure that we've all put a 3minute track on, that has packed the dancefloor and had 'em waving hands in the air etc, and we wished that the track didnt have just 60 seconds left to play(seamless loop), even wishing that certain instrumental parts of some tracks lasted longer, either for mixing purposes, or to give the bride & groom ample time to amble their way up to the dancefloor for their first dance, or of course, an important talkover(seamless loops)

Its a shame that Plasa isnt just around the corner, since I bet that Chrismk cant wait until September to try out a few contenders for his hard~earned cash.

At the end of the day, if you (or any other DJ - chrismk !!) only want to play CD after CD at a gig then really 'any old' CD player will do, I never used seamless loops, hot starts or anything, I pressed play waiting three minutes then pressed eject.That's it, so I brought a twin CD player that cost £300, about 6 years ago, so quite expensive then, and they are still going strong.

Im listening to the song 'You spin round (like a record) by Dead or Alive' and yipe
I feel just like the song with this whole lot until I did my research, I posted a bit
earlier saying oh well might as well go for GEMINI, the 3 yr warranty is attractive
for one but I have always believed if a product is going to fail it will do so within
normaly 4 to 8 months.

But before I go any further I want to thank each and everyone one of you for
the great replies and I think this topic is going to attract and generate alot of
attention in the in the forcible future be it DENON or Pioneer.

And to just quickly answer a few Q's about the need for various functions, well
yes Im always keen to try out different styles of mixing like back to back, dual
play etc so I see my self owning a pair of DENON DN S5000 by June, why so late
well Im not into just spending big money in one hit, on the other hand maybe I
cant wait, and no I hav'nt been wasting anyone's time.

There's so much I'd like to answer to the replies but I feel it would make for
boring reading.

THANKS ALL

You are not alone Chrismk.
I posted the same question on Jan 13th-Which new cd player.
I only got 5 replies!!
I fancied either the Gemini 3000 or the Denon 4000(I like the idea of playing mp3's -the way ahead)
I was put off the Gemini and HAD decided to go for the Denon;BUT now like you I'm not so sure.
My present player which is the Denon2000F;which I have had for about 8 years has been excellent. In the last year I have had to replace the lazers,but I think its time I splashed out on a new player.
My only gripe with the Denon and for that matter cd players in general is the trays are prone to being knocked and damaged.Its ashame they dont all use the slot type.

i have read this post and it just reminds me so much of the technics vestax argument you see so much!

and i am going to say the best thing to do is create a short list of the features and brands you would maybe look at buying then go and test them for yourself at fortress Chris hehe or your local store.. but shop around for the best price on whatever you chose..

remember its down to you and what ever you find 'the best' is what is the best for you!

I may get around to updating it...eventually and removing the Christmas graphics...probably around PLASA 2004 , although it is still the Chinese new year .

lol well okay then

roll on Plasa!!

So far my research has lead me two ways.

Denon offers excellent if not above board of features, the pros against Pioneer so
far against Pioneer is the replaceable slot drive, hell, its hell when a drive goes
down.

Alpha track selection is not well described, can you play whats still remaining of
the track thats busy being played as Im seeing things like 35 seconds but seems
to refer to after a disc is ejected, 35 sec, umm not a plus.
The mirror mix is a bonus and a great fun feature to have and all done from the
same cd, now thats way cool.

So it still looks like DENON (note the upper case typing) compared to Pioneer.......

But I'vr yet to hear details from members saying that they enjoy and USE the
features of the DENON, sure I've read some great reviews from yo guys but have
failed to say if you use any of the DENON features, Im curious nad need to know.
Gary said he had both and that the drives were interchangeable on the 9000 and
5000's, any other features you've tried and can 'Feed' me with would be great but
only if you've used them as Im quite familiar with the features of both DENON
and Pioneer.
As Chris mentioned he has had complaints, sure its like buying a Rolls Royce and
braking down a mile after you just bought the bloody thing (no I dont own a Roller)

hello.well i own a denon 4000 and i lurve it,i dj using mp3's..and love it,,very easy to use and although ive just finished my 2nd gig i hope will see me thru for a long time as i have no replacements as yet!!

fair dues

i have 3 dn-s5000's and a dn-m2300r (only 2s5000's are on the road though) and have had no problems (touch wood) my m2300r has served me well and will continue to do so for a long time!