Hi i was wondering what you thought of people who just use 100% coped cds to dj with as its starting to **** me off as i have always tryed to stay legal with my music yet the club that i dj at every single dj and i mean every single 1 uses 100% copyed cds not 1 original. now im sure some of us will have some questinable songs but not 100 % of your music in fact i consider myself a music collector as well as a dj as im sure a lot of you all do.

but surely this is the same as people downloading from the net playing MP3's !!!

Oh dear! Here we go with grey area time again!

Very easy to get worked up about but not nearly so easy to prove!

These DJ's 'could' merely be using copies and leaving their originals at home?

'Could' be making compilations of their CD's for ease of use?

'Could' even be using a laptop with not a CD in sight, but own every single one of the tunes they use?

Furthermore it is down to the individuals conscience, if they are downloaded and burnt to CD (without getting into legality) does it make them a worse DJ??

Were the pirates of the past 'Radio Caroline' etc legal? The answer is no but there was a demand for tunes we wanted to hear and they supplied those tunes!!

I do understand your frustration but if the punters want eg. Blues christmas single NOW are you gonna play the MP3? are you gonna download it and burn it to CD then play it? Or are you gonna wait till December to buy it but be 'legal' even though the radio stations countrywide are playing it??

Its all down to conscience and the individual.

Does it make them a better or worse DJ playing to a crowds demands NO I don't think so IMHO

Spin

Well, I used to get mad about it, now it doesn't bother me, and each to their own, especially where any risk is concerned.

I was discussing this subject with Josh (McCardle) over the weekend, and he asked the question, who is the most stupid? - The 100% CD based D.J for staying legit and happily paying over the odds for the same titles sold cheaper in almost every other European Country and the US or those downloading for free and not greasing the corporate pole?. I must admit, I didn't have an answer to that question .

Just to had a further edge to the debate...do you think its right for a customer in the UK to pay £19.99 for the same CD Album sold in the US shopping mall for the equivalent of £12.49? - how do you justify that?.

In the good old days, before CD Burners and CDR's it was almost impossible to use pirated material at a disco unless you used a tape deck which was an evil device designed to off even the most patience of D.J's. Mini Disc's then hit the shops and a lot of D.J's used this medium for pirating, this has now been replaced by CDR's and who knows what technology will follow next.

I still believe that D.J's play an important role to promoting music and I think that as far as the music industry goes, we get a very raw deal. There are no subsidised or promotional outlets for us! - in fact far fewer than the 12" freebies that used to drop through your letterbox during the 80's .

The main difference between us and the general CD buying public is that we don't buy titles by choice, we have to spend money on music that we may not choose to listen to personally, this is an added sting in the tail. Hmmm the latest Pop idols no hoper has released a new single - do I spend £3.99 on it on the gamble that it will chart?, or do I borrow it from my 8 year old sister to copy, or download it? that is the question?.

Equally, I spend £30 a month on two certain subscription based CD suppliers who are paid to supply me with new releases which stand more than a good chance of being future top 40 hits...Hmmmmm, the last few months the content of these CD's has been total crap and not worth 10p per track let alone almost £1.50!, and I have yet to see any of the stuff on September / Octobers offerings actually chart! - who exactly is robbing who here?? .

Now slightly but still relevant:-

"D.J In the Mix" - the free new release download service promoted earlier by Gary. I'm not knocking it whilst it's free but when it becomes subscription based they'll either have to try harder & get some decent stuff or i'm outta there!. After almost having to cough up a lung and leave a pound of flesh as a deposit to prove the fact that I am a D.J ,I finally gained access to what, at first, appeared to be a D.J's paradise and the answer to our prayers.

As anything on DJITM actually charted??, or likely to?, I realise that one or two get the odd play by certain Radio 1 Club D.J's, but I have yet to see anything on there make the general R1 Playlist, enter the UK Club Chart, or heaven forbid - Enter the UK Top 40!. Most of the stuff currently on DJITM is either so far out that you need to be working an underground trance club in London or high season in Ibiza. When I heard that there was a free, but soon to be subscription based service aimed at D.J's, I expected something similar to the DMC service but online where you get access to a new tracks from all genres - Chart, Cheese & Dance rather than Bedroom D.J material .

What we really need is legal subscription based access to the general new release pop and mobile material along with a smattering of new dance releases. Anybody got Richard Bransons email??.

Very true chris.
im sure people who dont have PLI or get their gear PAT tested every year think the same, Why should i ? im still getting gigs and still working in most venues !

A whole collection on recorded CD's is quite amazing.

There are several areas that can be put to fault on the current situation.

It's almost impossible to police this area, 1000's of clubs and dj's

The easy access of the net and it's vast content of tracks to download.

The lack of promo's to anyone other than the radio stations. In the days when the 7" vynyl single was king, you could if you knew the right contacts and most music label reps couldn't wait to give them away, get hold of a promo copy.

It may be my old age getting on top of me but didn't songs used to be played on the radio for only 1 or 2 weeks before release, now not only is it up to 8 weeks prior to relase, eg White Flag, Dido but the album that the first track of an artist comes from spawns 4, 5 or 6 singles in the case of Daniel Bedingfield.

The massive delay in suff being released from one major country to another, R Kelly's Ignition had been in the American charts for 30 weeks before it had been released here.

Back to the original question, whos wrong or right, who knows ! The honest ones amongst us have to get by as we can. All we can do is push the legit areas for getting hold of the pre/new releases to ensure that they issue them more frequently and cheaper....I must be dreaming...

I am striving to get to a situation which, from the viewpoint of a casual observer/punter, could be viewed as having a large quantity of "copied" CD's.

For me however, the copied CD's would be all of my old vinyls (collected from the last 20+ years at full retail price) transfered onto PC, cleaned up, de-crackled etc,easier to manipulate and burnt (in an order which suits me) to CD.

No exact duplicates of NOW 55 on CDR though, although NOW (thats what I call Music) and NOW 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and 11 are prime contenders for being moved from the vinyl format on which I bought them.

I keep all my vinyl at home after I've transferred them to CDR.

A person copying their entire music collection from a single source - eg: A mates hard drive, isn't doing them selves any favours, either legally, or (IMO) more importantly, as a DJ. Spending all day, watching Windows icons flutter thousands of files from C: to USB: doesnt download the music knowledge into the would-be DJ at the same time of course.

But, I see a very valid reason for an established DJ to copy everything from their PC to an additional backup, to enable him/her to keep working in the event of some natural disaster eg: Fire, Theft, Flood, Spouse seeing a new handbag/shoe shop etc....

Personaly try to keep to originals as much as poss,but am thinking about getting a laptop for the old back catalogue.

I went through a phase of downloading loads and only in the last few months have i realised what a bad effect it has had on the music industry.

You look at singles sales 20/30 years ago. To get a number 1 single you had to sell in the region of 200,000 copies in a week. Now you need to sell 30,000. Why? because everybody is downloading them instead of buying them.

Now i am against lining the pockets of the already rich singers/bands, but some of that money does go back into the industry to help new music. Because there are so few singles sales now, labels are less likely to risk unsigned or new artists. Fair enough, but it is depriving us of loads of good music.

In my opinion there is less and less good new music about these days and it is because of downloading and copying. If there was a way of wiping it out then i would be all for it.

I agree with chris about us djs not being recognised enough though. My only justification for downloading (when i used to) was that by being a dj and playing to crowds of people, the money they lost on me not paying for my copy was easily covered by the people who did pay for it because they heard me play it.

And lastly! On the note of Dj in the mix, i think alot of people have misunderstood what it is about. It was never intended to be a source of music for your average dj. It was started by a dance record label as an easier way to get their music to the mailing list djs. They are there to promote the style of music associated with them, not commercial stuff that you hear on the radio. Obviously they would like their tunes to do well commercially, but the site is aimed at dance djs who play upfront club music and not (please dont take offence here!) mobile/party djs.

Rant over .

Jon.

Just a quick question, does anyone get promos sent to then, i dont mean by subscribing to white disc or promo only. If so any pointers to help other get freebies???

I think Chis comment


"still believe that D.J's play an important role to promoting music and I think that as far as the music industry goes, we get a very raw deal. There are no subsidised or promotional outlets for us! - in fact far fewer than the 12" freebies that used to drop through your letterbox during the 80's!" .......Is the key here!

I fully support ridding the world of large scale piracy...the films and CD's out out boot sales months before launch, poor copies and conmen!

All the DJ's out there are the biggest non-paid promoters around, but are expected to pay for the privedge!

How much material would you want to listen to in your own time?

I don't mind buying the latest Coldplay Album to chill out at home, but the latest S Club 8..........

As a DJ (club or mobile) I believe we should be exempt from copyright laws.

I agree to the "principle" of DJs being excempt from some of the music copyright laws...nice idea.

The only thing is, whats legal criteria would someone have to have to prove themselves to be a DJ, and (in the realms of this suggestion) thereby legally excempt... eg. whats to stop my neighbour or granny or a whole class of Sclub8 fans declaring themselves "DJs" and downloading 10,000 tracks off of the internet and sharing them on a £20 pack of 50 cdr discs, without fear of prosecution?

Possible DJ proof could be a current paying membership to a DJ Association, a recent tax return etc...but certainly, some tangible proof of being a bonifide DJ would be the only way

Im not sure i agree with djs getting music for free.

There are two main reasons that djs get paid so much for only a few hours work. One being the equipment we have to buy is expensive, and secondly the music we have to buy to work.

Obviously it would be nice to not have to pay for music, but how many of you out there would significantly lower the price you charge for a disco if we did get it for free? To us, music is an expense, so if we dont pay for it then we should not charge (the customer) extra for it. I would imagine that the majority of people would continue to charge the same and just end up with a bigger profit margin.

...Blimey! People moan about the cost of a cd - but dont you think that by copying or downloading music you are doing nothing to bring the prices down! I still say that in relation to your fee, the price of a cd is peanuts anyway.

Most know my views about illegal copying/downloads - but let me ask you this.... if you steal £5 are you any less a thief than if you stole £50? Answer - No. CDs are the tools of our trade and as with any professional, you have to have them. I am sure that most of you base your fees taking the cost of buying music into consideration - a cost which is not exorbitant once you have built up your collection.

Yes, it is very tempting to copy discs - just as tempting as it is to buy a snidey tax disc cos it is tons cheaper. But, in the cold light of day, breaking the law is breaking the law - there is no argument you could use in court to justify copying discs if they were all you were using. The judge certainly would not want to hear that tired old excuse of how expensive cds are!

Obviously everyone decides for themselves which path they want to tread... the legal one or the illegal one.....

Some interesting comments.

A topic a while back was the amount charged, and if my memory is still working there was considerable differnence with regional variations in the amount that can be charged at an event. So whether you paid well for only a few hours work will depend on your post code.

Music is an expense. I have many compilation CD's, TOTP, Fresh Hits etc, and I have Now 1-55!! The return on investment in music will depend on what part of the country you live. Yes it is an outgoing expense and is the 'core' of what we do, it would be nice to make our money music expenditure go that bit further!

Whether pricing stays the same and profit margins go up is debateable, great next topic???? I belive for the average disco in a community hall or pub every place will have a "nominal" acceptable market price, if you are off this then you and your equipement stay at home! I have not put my fees up in the last 3 years because of this.

Proof of membership of a DJ association is a good idea for copyright exemption.

Maybe one day this forum will be so big that we will be able to do a deal with the record companys so that we can get the music we want direct from hee on a pay per download basis i know this would be a long way off and we would still need proof of being a pro dj but we can dream.

What a great topic. Ever noticed how every new compilation that is realised is not exactly perfect?, by that I mean that there isn't every track that you need on there which usually means the purchase of another compilation or two compilations to complete your requirement, but of course there is still plenty of room on the previous CD for those track fillers that will never make the top 40 .

I agree with Chris' earlier comment regarding the rubbish on the so called DJ marketed prerelease compilations, I'm still awaiting for the remix of the Banana Boat song to make the radio playlists.

Kazzachi - what makes dj's any less perfect than the average human being?, the market stalls are swamped with people buying copies of cd's, dvd's playstation games and the like. Ever been to a computer fair lately?, every other trader at these places is selling some form of pirated material. It was found in a mori poll that around 8 out of 10 households have at least one pirated copy of a cd, with more than half of the same statistic having more than half of their entire collection either borrowed and copied or obtained as an mp3 download. Thats a lot of criminals and I think that the building industry is going to do extremely well in the next few years, building all of the prisons to house them in. I also don't think its fair to compare pirating to driving with a dodgy tax disc, using pirated cd material doesn't invalidate your motor insurance for example.

Interesting to read that in the top 5 growth industries in the United States - pirating rates at no4, far higher than tobacco smuggling and just below the drugs industry.

What I don't understand however are the folk, who on previous topics justify their use of P2P media just to download difficult to source tracks, or those that they have failed to find using commercial means. The fact that some dj's may feel they are justified in downloading the odd track illegally doesn't make it any less of a crime than the next guy who may be downloading the entire top 30. Although the punishment metered out if discovered may be less or not worth persuing in the eyes of the authorities, the fact that you are still breaking the law in the first place by downloading is equally valid.

What you fail to miss on each of these topics, is that you continue to compare downloading music with general crime. So why is downloading considered a crime by djs judging other djs and not by the general public. After all, if the mori poll had shown that 8 out of 10 households took part in robbery, rape or drug dealing there would be a public outcry, yet the fact that however you phrase it, 8 out of 10 households are actively breaking the law, some on a daily basis makes it ok?. Surely a crime is a crime?, so why is downloading deemed acceptable and robbery or drug dealing isn't?.

..the general public dont go out and play their illegal music to hundreds of people do they! We as djs do on the otherhand! ... and get paid for it. My comments regarding snidey tax discs was just a comparison.... ie.. none of us, I hope would buy one - thats illegal..... you are either law abiding or not.... no arguing - some choose to break the law whilst others dont.

I used to use P2P software - but for my own personal reasons - I purchase the full sound quality CD's.

Yes, I get fed-up with the rubbish and over repeated tracks used on compilations - but it's been like that for years.
I get fed up with the price of CD's - but I now hunt around more for better deals.

I would rather have a good sound quality mp3 ripped from one of my own discs - than a lesser ripped track downloaded from someone I don't know!!!!
Plus - I have the original for 'backup'.
However, another good reason I buy the 'original' CD's is that I know of a DJ that was 'bubbled' on by his rival - when Mini-Disc came out - and it nearly cost him his home because he played copied tracks on Mini-discs.

I won't go down the road of 'criminal' CD copying - already covered, but I won't be buying anymore crap DVD film rips at the bootsale. I'd rather wait for the official release - even though it's a 'price' rip off!!!!!!!!!

spin im not really sure where you got the it makes you a worse dj from as i never said that but just like a person who does not pay taxes when i do, it bugs me i think its wrong that there are 5 djs who dj regular at the club i work and only me and 1 other dj have original music with maybe a few bootlegs and hard to find tracks copyed yet 2 of the others have 100% copyed music all downloaded or copyed from a friend i know this for a fact not backed up from originals or copyed on to a laptop for mp3 djing (which i do not have a problem with people doing) and the other dj has about 70% copyed music.

... those who are selling pirated cd/dvd/computer peripherals wont be doing so for long if they chose to display their wares at fairs and boot sales....... they will get caught out eventually

for me i don't really care whether a DJ plays originals or copies, it's up to their own Conscience.

how many of us record TV programmes - keeping them on tape for more than a few weeks in in breach of copyright law

how many of us bend the truth slightly on our tax returns - which is fraud

if we came across a £5 note in the street, would put it in our pockets, and not hand it to the police.

as a very wise man once said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone"

What's wrong with Mormons?

and more to the point...how many people have a copy of Kazaa, Bearshare etc on their pc at this present moment, or allow their kids, spouse, etc access to it?.

The previous (but one) post didn't say that there was anything wrong with Mormons.

Did it.

As for tax returns...I would LOVE to be able to just give the Inland Revenue the THREE numbers which they actually need. (How much I earnt as a DJ, How much I spent on DJ'ing, and what the balance is...).

Why I have to write "N/A" in boxes 1.5 thru to box 8million 2thousand 7hundred and fifty seven (point.7) - I'll never know.

Hmmm must get something cobbled together by January for the last possible day of last years tax return...

I dont think its anything to do with self righteousness.... if anyone professes to be a "professional" then they should act accordingly... copying cds was the issue in hand. Any DJ who goes out using only copied discs, not owning the original is not regarded as an ideal advert for a "professional dj". One of the main ingredients to our job is cds.... so by using only copied discs it is not a small matter - if you only use copied discs (not owning orignals) you deserve to be caught. And, with the amount of gigs people profess to be doing, no matter where you come from, you should still be in a position to comfortably afford the prices of legit cds.
I hope any Latter day Saints havent taken offence to some of the comments made.

all i was saying is that like every thing in life we all make judgement calls, and it is up to their own conscience.

here here Ian! We all work to our own ethics and standards.
Mind you, those who think its ok to copy cds really ought to stop moaning about people who dont have pat tested equipment! If they are classed as cowboys for not having it then surely the boot fits on the other foot!

Kazz exactly, that was the point i was making

don't criticise others unless you are whiter than white, I'm sure we all have little parts of our lives that arn't 100% kosher

Perhaps the way ahead and to prevent piracy in the first place could be solved without resorting to the strong arm tactics currently being talked about.

(A little off topic but worth mentioning)

PIRACY SOLUTION:-

Make better products that are worth their price - "Value Added Products." Include colorful, useful booklets/manuals, extras perks that people would pay retail prices to own. Consumers will assuredly flock back when they are given the first class treatment.

Charge Reasonable Prices:- Its a known fact that less than 10% of the market value of the CD reaches the artist. Since CD's cost around 80p to manufacture as a complete product with artwork, where is your £19.99 going??. The answer to this question is to the organisations behind the actual artists. Many Artists have their own websites so why not charge for their fans to download the track / album directly from the site using P2P in a legit form??. This way the artist gets 100% of the money, the consumer gets a better deal and we are all happy. Apart from perhaps the bosses in these organisations who front the industry, but then who gives a damn?, we are talking about supporting the artists and music industry, not some fat $500,000 a year businessman and his wifes expensive shoe shopping

Make music actually mean something again:- It seems that todays artists are here today and gone tomorrow. That £4.99 CD single will possibly be in the loft before the end of 2004, but you'll probably be playing the beatles, stones, Elvis, Soul, Motown, Rock'n'roll etc well into 2010 and beyond, and WHY?. Because, they were classics and passed down from generation to generation and above all the artists had TALENT!. Today, if you look good on the telly then you will be able to cut a cd. How many of you are still playing Bros, Spice Girls, New Kids on the Block, 5Star, Backstreet Boys etc on a REGULAR basis?. Yet the 60's - 80's Classics come out at almost every family occasion. Point Made!.

Some people will act strictly on principle and fully refrain from use of pirated music. Others from this forum and personally, however, will use some pirated music so long as the price stays artificially high. Both types of people in this segment will readily purchase more music legally if the price drops to equillibrium. So, potentially, some piracy COULD exist purely because of high prices.

What we, as promoters of music, need is another outlet for music, at a fair price. Kazzachi, mentions that we play material to 100's maybe thousands of people every week for profit, but does this mean that we should be penalised for doing so?. Would it be unrealistic to expect the Taxi Driver to pay more for his tax disc purely because he uses a vehicle to earn a living??.

Speaking as someone who got on a soapbox last month - and upset a few people with my comments - Maybe a lesson can be learnt.

Not everyone will agree with ones' opinion or way of thinking.
It's nice when people are in complete agreement with one another - but hey - life would be a little boring if that's all we did.

It can be difficult to convey one's actual opinion thru words on a screen - some have a better grasp of the English language than others. Some interpret one way- others another.

I think the bottom line is that from time to time - we all get a little uptight and want to let off steam. There is nothing wrong with that - the forum has had some excellent topics and, I hope, will continue to do so.

As much as I defend DJ Kray's right to comment and make his opinion, I also defend Eskies, Ian's, Gary's, McCardles, Kazzachi's, Spins, Mikeee's, other members, etc.
Topical debate and banter is good - it creates good, educational and witty response.
But when it creates potential greater 'upset' or 'uptightness', a way for release is to humourise the situation and laugh at ourselves.
Sometimes - we have to let a subject go, or else, we go round and round in circles - making the potential new viewing member - bored and uninterested.

All we have to do is sometimes take a step back - check our preview button more and read the posting before it's submitted. Have we put into words and phrase EXACTLY what we would have said to someone face to face???
Call it a last check before going to 'press' - after all, the forum is not only member viewable, is it.

"let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" - my stone would be the size of a city!!!

Well done everyone! This just goes to prove that when there is a topic where we have all got differing view points, the forum goes into overload! I dont want to live in a stagnant pond so this sort of debate is good - as long as nobody becomes offensive to any other member because they dont share their view point.

BTW... I have never paid £19.99 for a cd comp or 4.99 for a single! I usually by my compilation albums once they have been put in the sale - and give the singles which appear on them away as prizes...... singles I usually buy for 1.99 but never pay more than 3.77 so all in all, my cds are extremely cost effective! Plus when you look at the longevity of a cd, the price is miniscule.

Another point, taxi drivers may pay the same for road tax but they do have other license expenses on top of that!

Now - moving along, to hopefully liven it up...... If you have PLI would you be happy to lend your certificate to a person so that he/she could go along and doctor it - so that they can present it to the venue..... just wondered what you thought of this type of copying!