So much has been said about the NADJ in relation to DJU, about the forum and 'attitude' so let’s redress the balance a little with some hard facts.

Back in 2003, the NADJ (then called TVDJA) were contacted along with other associations, retailers etc by the forum founder in relation to affiliating with the then fledging DJU.

The emails were initially ignored, however, at the time Mr Mike Moore was both moderator on DJU and TVDJA Secretary, and he was asked to escalate the emails. Eventually the attitude which came back (we are alright Jack - pull the ladder up) was less than favourable and the association had clearly demonstrated its aloofness in that it wouldn't be seen working with a forum - or rather DJU. In short DJU was started from nothing and was not helped along the way by any association, retailer or external entity and no favours or support have ever been given to this day.

DJU was entirely promoted by the work of its own 'committee' - in the form of the moderation and admin team, and the efforts and contents which were voluntarily contributed by its own membership - a model which seems to work as it still exists today, and essentially means total independence and the fact that it is not answerable to anyone but we are just as much volunteers as you are.....which means that we also don't expect, tolerate or deserve abuse towards our efforts.

The forum also remains free to use (because we don't see the mileage in having members contribute information free and out of goodwill, and then charging others for the right to read it!) the content should be free for everybody, but remain professional enough for it to have appeared proudly on your own website!

Despite the distance the association put between us over the first three years, the NADJ were once again offered an olive branch in 2006, when DJU decided to offer association members their own area of the forum in which to discuss events, news etc.
SEDA took up the offer in ‘working alongside’ us, however once again, the NADJ decided that it wished to have nothing to do with DJU, and didn't even offer the courtesy of a reply.

Sadly, the entire idea has now been scrapped due to lack of use of these areas, however the initial courtesy was offered as SEDA will no doubt testify.

I would like to take this opportunity in inviting the associations to put forward all that they have offered DJU (or its members) in return for this goodwill? With animosity and disrespect of course not included, I suspect very little can be brought to the table, if anything!

Indeed, the then NADJ Chairman went on record on DJU to attack it and its rules.
He described forums in general as being "Restrictive" and his post is still evident on the forum and can easily be found using a search!. Pretty hypercritical then of the NADJ to start their own forum shortly after, an action which clearly distances itself from other forums by demonstrating not only their competitive nature, but also their independence. The famous saying "I want to be alone" seems to be fairly apt at this point!

So please do not jump quickly to levy criticism at DJU as every effort has been made to work with the associations, retailers etc over the years, and we are more than happy to post up the emails to prove.

There are plenty of hints appearing that DJU is essentially the bad guy and is obstructive towards the associations, yet I am sure that our members will find little evidence of this as there is plenty of free advertising within the community where events & meetings have been allowed to be publicised over the last 4 years - indeed DJU has offered far more goodwill to the various associations than has been clearly returned!

The only restriction which has been made is the constant bumping of topics by the same author and spamming / preaching of events at every opportunity and occasionally carrying over several threads; one thread in the relevant section should be more than enough because humans have only one set of eyes, and the brain doesn't appreciate and doesn't like duplicated content. Most people tend to make a coffee when the T.V. adverts come on, and that also applies to forums too, with most people moving to another thread when they see an alias who is known for their continual advertising, so multiple posts can indeed have a negative effect!

The associations are not given the gold key to the crapper, and we don't believe in a tiered system.
If they choose to use the forum then they are expected to follow exactly the same rules here as everybody else, besides, this should be even more so, since they are effectively here as an ambassador for their chosen cause and remember whom they represent!

Perhaps more care should be taken in setting the example to everybody else, and take some pride in the industry - not creating detriment and cementing new, far bigger walls.

We shouldn't really have to point this out anyway because you only have to read the comments on the various threads to see how appreciative the various association members and committee are of DJU and how little they contribute on your everyday threads - we allow them free advertising and we get criticised / mocked in return - all very professional and well balanced I'm sure!

However, despite the fact that DJU is clearly not attractive enough to be used in everyday DJ related activities and advice giving, that hasn't stopped them from wanting to promote their events at each and every opportunity, and to essentially use this community as a tool for money making, because after all, the NADJ is a money making association charging a subscription fee to join?
Yes or no?

Therefore, it comes under the commercial etiquette of this forum, no "if's", "but's" or "whys".

In reality, even DJU's first DJ Related event in 2005 (DJUMAX) was poorly supported by the industry associations and professional organisations, apart from the Musicians Union (who to this day still continue to support DJU) it was down to the staff, members and retailers at the time who supported the event and made it a worthwhile venture.
Despite this, DJU still allows promotion of third party shows and events within the guidelines, yet some of those individuals who advertise shows are instrumental by their absence between such events and it would be nice to see and hear a little more from them in between.

"Good enough to advertise on, but not good enough to post on" - seems to be the message from every key NADJ committee member and subsequent chairpersons in relation to DJU and its membership.
Before commenting on this thread, please take the time to look at the join dates of the various association committees (past and present) and then at the post count and content.

*You can do this via their profile*.

Then also take the time to read the posts which those people have made.
I am sure that you will find that the majority of the posts have been in relation to plugging some event, or to advertising their existence. Notice how much little content there is actually helping or advising others, and those new to the industry, who need it the most.

By charging a membership fee, the NADJ is essentially a commercial activity.
So why should DJU not treat it as such and retain some common sense boundaries when it comes to this expected copious and unlimited free advertising, and at least expect some non-financial contribution and goodwill back from its key members?
Even some professional respect would be a good start!

The only time that the associations seem to become verbal (aside from when they are promoting) is when they have their wings clipped for overstepping the rules, or we stop them from using us like a doormat - sadly that situation should not arise from professional associations, but it happens.

They expect their members to follow a code, and so do we! I really can't convey it any simpler than that.

Of course the message from some association committees seems to be that the goodwill flows only in one direction!

Clearly, DJU Members are good enough to be groomed and recruited for their subscriptions, but not worthy of advice and information towards bettering the industry, or getting their questions answered, and we are not worthy of help, support and advice from NADJ key members and committee, at least not until a subscription has been paid!

Take a look at many of the questions on DJU regarding copyright, insurance and the legalities of running a mobile disco or a business in general, and you'd be hard pushed to find any comment from the all knowing associations who should exist and take pride in transmitting this information to ensure that the newbie’s of today become the professionals of tomorrow.

Even questions relating to the use of music snippets on websites was researched by our own members and staff at DJU and it was us who asked the question of the MCPS and PPL to set the record straight and quash the rumour and assumption with an actual statement of FACT. Again, these types of threads can be found on a search.

Where were the mighty associations and their connections and legal advice giving then? Where was this supposed bettering of the industry?

Forums do this for free everyday, and thanks to the support of their members and a little common sense, they hopefully will continue to do so. So we take this opportunity to once again thank our members for their continued support.

You may question the moderation within DJU, the very same moderation which was effectively blocking out potential minefields and grey areas such as promoting a certain Russian MP3 website at a time when some forums and sites were allowing this to go ahead!

How can promoting an illegal site or allowing others to give potentially erroneous information be good for the industry?
DJU came under heavy criticism for this too, but it turned out to be the right decision when the MCPS and PPL declared the site to be illegal!

If you wish to carry out activities or behaviour which may bring the industry into disrepute, then yes, you will find the forum heavily moderated and yes, if you keep pushing the boundaries then you could lose access to some areas and end up having your posts moderated - but these decisions are yours and are deemed by your cotinued attitude within the forum!

After all, why should we allow the activities and attitudes of others encroach on the the abilities of ourselves and our hard working colleagues to earn a living?. Why should a minority shape our collective futures?.

Equally, you may be challenged if you use the forum purely for your own ends and don't bother to contribute advice back to the members on here!

There are all questions we can all answer and advice that we can all give on a wide variety of subjects, but a small minority simply can't be bothered, appearing only when they have something to sell or something to promote and that isn't playing the game, and neither is it fair to those who do visit us on a regular basis and give advice and construct detailed and informative posts purely out of goodwill.

For the majority, the moderation on here will never be restrictive or be a problem and will only become apparent when others cross the line. If you don't agree to act professionally or follow the rules then why did you sign up? and why would you still remain here?.

After all, the basic common-sense rules which apply here are probably no different to those which are exercised by the NADJ or any other entity for that matter!

Say if you were to stand up in an association meeting or at an event and start spouting off about how Crap they were and how much better their neighbours were and started handing out fliers advertising it, you probably wouldn't be made to feel welcome any longer, so we don't apologise for following similar guidelines here!

The same applies to your local pub, stand up and shout your mouth off to the point where it attacks others or perhaps encroaches on their enjoyment or indeed rubbishes the establishment of which you are a member (or visitor) and the landlord will quite rightly ask you to leave the premises. So what gives?

For those few who do criticise the forum and find it restrictive, then take the mature route and just exercise the freedom of choice and leave and find a forum with rules more to your liking, and don't be a hypercrit and remain on something that you clearly so despise - after all nobody wants to picnic next to a sewage farm do they? Common sense would tell you to eat elsewhere with surroundings more to your liking! But for the rest of us who do use the forum as it was intended, we don't need your blessing or approval to remain or to feel good about ourselves or our philosophies.

It is those who can't let it lie or who continue to create animosity and those who just sit back and continue to let others bring detriment and negativity to the industry and spoil it for the rest who have a problem, and fortunately that isn't the majority!
Sadly, sometimes just sitting back and letting others shape the industry in a negative fashion, and effect the efforts of others to earn a living for them and their families can encourage them and be just as damaging as condoning it, after all, we all rely on a good and professional public perception to earn a buck, and if the industry is perceived as cheap and tacky, well, that will be the attitude of the public when it comes to prices!.

Above all, people will read the information around, draw their own conclusions as to what is the most beneficial to them and decide who and what they wish to be a member of without any debate, brainwashing or sermon. Comments like some of those who are constantly on the attack or those who come here filled with negativity are hardly constructive and such posts are certainly not instrumental in winning over others to back your cause!

So please take a look around and see exactly who is (or isn't) supporting and encouraging whom. Once again this should not be construed as an attack on the associations or an invitation for a debate to start along those lines.

This is just a post defending our policies to run the forum as we choose, and defend the fact that the NADJ, as one example, have been offered the opportunity to work with us on more than one occasion and this post is just a combination of a series of points which are already around on the main forum for people to see for themselves with the simple search.

Freedom of Speech does not give you carte blanche' rights to encroach on the enjoyment of others, or to attack or abuse them. Mention carrying bombs at the airport for a joke, or yell "Fire" in a crowded cinema or swear in the street within earshot of the police - to see exactly where the F-O-S boundaries lie. There are also occasions when "Freedom to Think" and "Freedom To Listen" are just as important as Freedom of Speech.

The same U.S amendments which promote freedom of speech also give the rights to the property owner to make and enforce rules of their choosing for visitors to their establishment, dwelling or private domain.

At the end of the day, it is pretty much unprofessional for any ‘professional association’ (and its committee or representatives) to be slagging off publically any other entity or forum. I mean, how often do you see the MU slagging off Equity and vice versa?

After all, these are associations with supposed professional ethics, so whether it should be seen to be attacking others publically (whether justified or not) is questionable, as are the motives for doing so.

In short, there is a great deal which the NADJ for example, has to offer...but there is also a lot it has to learn about professional discretion.

DJU does maintain this discretion and will not allow soap opera style sensationalism or discussion in a negative light of any entity within the community or allow or encourage members to bring problems from elsewhere onto here unless there is proof of wrong-doing or a scam (which itself is provable) and only where in drawing public attention to it will protect the business or financial interests of others. How can preventing a witch hunt be classed as being overmoderated?. If you have a dispute with another member then contact the mods, but we will seek both sides.

This post is essentially the first of its kind and it is not borne out of malice and is not intended to be attacking the NADJ directly or deemed to be so, but more protecting DJU and setting the story straight in relation to some of the comments levied from NADJ / members.

Hopefully this post will be accepted under the recognised analogy that there are indeed two sides to every story, and so here ends the second one!

Have a nice and bountiful day!

Well said - there are certain people (not solely restricted to the NADJ hierarchy either) who take pleasure in pi$$ing on us even though we're not on fire.

Our policy of promoting professionalism and not permitting negative comment of associations and other forums has been interpreted by some as a sign of weakness. They then seek to take full advantage.

I do feel though that, the more times we ignore the actions of a few, the more they take advantage, using every opportunity to slag us off whilst expecting to continue to receive our support when it suits them.

DJU was never created to divide the DJ community - this is something that has developed because a few prima donnas didn't think the rules applied to them and a few others saw it as a tool to be used as and when necessary.

There is a theory that when something is free it's not valued - this is proven by the actions of some. It is why I also think that members of the associations who pay a subscription tend to have a higher loyalty because they have paid into it and therefore own a stake - exactly what that stake is I'm afraid I'm still as much in the dark today as I was 5 years ago

This topic will achieve one of two things - it will divide the industry further or it will make us stop and think what we are doing and what it is achieving for our industry long term. We at DJU have tried to set an example by not allowing this forum to be used as a against other forums or associations - OK I hold my hands up that there have been occasions when this hasn't been 100% but before you knock us into the ground because of it look at your own actions over the last few years and then make an honest comparison.

Personally I see the future of Mobile DJing in the UK being more successful when the associations and forums work together for a common goal. At the moment we all have our own piece of rope and are pulling it in our own direction with some even cutting the strands of their 'competitors' in an attempt to give them the advantage. Look on this topic as us tying some of our broken strands back together. I accept that it could also be viewed as cutting the strands of others as well but for too long DJU has been the whipping boy of those who must feel so insecure that they take every opportunity to run us down in an attempt (I think) to make themselves feel better.

Well 5 years on and it hasn't worked - DJU is still here. Our policy of offering free advice, with no strings (provided members abide by the rules) seems to be one that a lot of DJs continue to sign up to - which leaves us with a choice - do we continue with the current trend or do we accept that no one organisation has a monopoly over any other and we work together for the benefit of us all.

My PM box is also available for comment.

Well theres a lot to read through and respond to there!

Firstly I'd like to dispell the myth that NADJ is a commercial entity. It is ran as a non profit organisaton with all funds used for the benefits of its members. This is not the first time I've had to point this out on here, so I'm wondering how much clearer I can make it?

I can't speak for all committee members, but I like to think I take an active role on here, as much as any other DJ Forum. However, I do feel like I have to be careful what I say here for fear of being moderated.. and this isn't a nice feeling and doesn't encourage open and meaningful discussion in my opinion. Please don't take that as an attack on the forum, or its operators, but I know I'm not alone in feeling like this.

And there does seem to be some deep rooted paranoia within this forum when it comes to NADJ, it has no ulterior motive and exsists to provide benefits, help and support for its members and bring DJs together on a local and national level, its the nearest thing to some kind of regulation within the industry. It charges a membership fee to cover the costs of doing all this effectivley.

Nicely put, Dukesy!

Um... yeah! What he said.

Ouch!! Dan, get out the wrong side of bed

I will respond when I've had chance to 1) Re - Read, and try to understand what I'm reading, and 2) go through Chris's original email's.

I will make one very quick comment, nobody complains at paying the MU!!! there wages bill per year is more than you, I etc can earn in a life time. Their Regional secretaries, I believe earn between £35K and £60K, and they are at the bottom of the food chain.

firstly dukesy you say there are 2 sides to every story i hope the other one is shorter .
danno13 as an ex mod here i can honestly say that no one as been moderated for any other reason than breaking the rules that we all signed up to,we didnt think there is a nadj member lets get him(didn't need to because they rarely come on,yourself excluded).most moderators have got better things to do than edite and delete post but when they take up the role they have a duty to monitor the forum and keep the standards of the post up and with in the rules(the moderators charter),it is as simple as that. i do think it benifits are members to be told of all the events that are going on within this industry,if we know about it we can decide for ourself whether we want to support it or not,but to keep bumping the post's is spamming and most of us dislike it.a lot of the trouble comes when nadj have something to promote (please exclude yourself danno from this)a lot of the committe crawl out of the woodwork to tell us how great nadj is we all should be supporting it and joining and then as soon as your event is over disappear again.
andy

Replying to your quick comment, taking point and indeed in the interests of transparency, organisations that work on behalf of their membership provide detailed breakdown of funding including expenditure, costs, wages, etc. Representing your organisation, out of interest, can you example this / do members receive such detailed information in a newsletter say for perusal, etc?

In addition, most of the moderating decisions have been decided / debated by more than one member of the moderating team. Often, any decision to restrict / curtail any members posting or membership privileges have been at the decision of a quorum of moderators and only after a private PM or Warning has failed.

I am a member of the MU and I don't begrudge the fees one bit, in fact I think it is good value for money. I get £10 million PLI, and many other benefits for my £10 a month.

What would I get from the NADJ for my membership fees? There are no real benefits to be currently had for a DJ in the South West, in fact where is the nearest office? The annual cast of membership including PLI is £135 in a lump sum. There is no legal help included.

I can't answer this truthfully as I haven't been on the committee for two years, I trust the people on the committee to do what is best for it's members.



Sorry, what has moderating got to do with NADJ, or have I missed something here???

Sorry, what has moderating got to do with NADJ, or have I missed something here???

Merely making an additional point to andy's reply post to Danno's comment above Mike

Hi Ed,

[quote]I am a member of the MU and I don't begrudge the fees one bit, in fact I think it is good value for money. I get £10 million PLI, and many other benefits for my £10 a month.

What would I get from the NADJ for my membership fees? There are no real benefits to be currently had for a DJ in the South West, in fact where is the nearest office? The annual cast of membership including PLI is £135 in a lump sum. There is no legal help included.)

I agree that at the moment the MU offer great value for money. As I see it at the moment the MU is a two headed monster, they are desperate to get "DJ's" on board to bolster their funds, but haven't they just agreed funding from the DCMS, for £500,00 to train and promote "Live" music in country wide venue's thus pushing DJ's out. Please remember a good deal isn't always as good as it seems, but hey, who was listening to me 4 / 5 years ago.

Anyway, my turn to burn dinner tonight, then I will come back read the original post and give a responce as a normal everyday DJ like the rest of you.

Well said that man!


Anyways back on topic

The main issue/arguement i have is that certain members of an association come online and blow the trumpet for their association. And thats all you see them for. If you do a quick member search for a association member and then view that members posts, Everyone will clearly see that they only ever come online to promote that association, NOT ONCE have they posted in the "Getting Started" area nor have they contributed to any other debate or issue on DJU.

Now that comment doesn't count for every member of an association who are members on DJU.

However the "Management" of a certain association use DJU as a door mat, and in my honest opinion thats not very good at all. There good enough to come online and TRY and promote there association, But thats all you see of them.





Which are?

What exactly would i get for my subsciption?




You do - OTHERS Dont



The only time any member would be moderated is if they went against the rules set out and clearly displayed and avaliable for viewing at anytime, The SAME rules EVERY member agreed to when they signed up!





Which is what?


Surely a loyal member of the NADJ and a former secretary can indicate yes or no, can you provide members a detailed breakdown of where the subscription money goes?

It is simple straight forward questions like these, no matter how they are phrased or how politely they are asked return no or only diversion replies, which build upon the assumption that you can only get an answer if you pay for it!

Given what has been said to date, who has replied and how long it has taken , i would suggest that for the greater good, either set out and practice with those who you wish to "represent" by simply helping and encouraging those that need help and advice when logging onto this forum and then perhaps members will see for them selves that the NADJ is truly an organisation of value, Dispelling myths, Smoke and mirror illusions cemented in some minds?

The proffesion needs organisations to co exist, work together and serve in the best ways that they possibly can, actions speak louder than words and always will.

So how come I wasn't PMd or warned prior to being put on moderation for making a joke, if I had been PMd, I would simply not have made any jokes of that nature again. What actually happened was I was imediately put on moderation & then (& only then)there was a PM sent to explain the siuation. Or was this just the exception to the rule?

Hi Stevie

Ok, off the top of my head, members agree not to use this forums service to post any material which is inflammatory, knowingly false and/or defamatory, libelous, inaccurate, abusive, racial, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, etc, etc.

Given the nature and severity of a violation, a moderation action will be in accordance with the forum rules, and indeed, a member will be notified of the moderation action.

We do not discuss the circumstances relating to any moderator action against any individual and their indiscretions on this community. To be blunt it is non of their business.

Suffice to say that if the nature of a post was deemed to be in very bad taste, detrimental to the forum or otherwise requiring an immediate action, moderators reserve the right to edit, moderate and even remove posts as clearly outlined in the forum AUP.

Steve, if you now have an issue that you feel remains long unresolved, please do contact a member of the moderation team via PM and we will try to help.

Please note that nowhere in the rules, does this forum allow its members to change or debate the house rules, neither does it allow members to cherry pick which rules apply to them at any given time, or in any given circumstance. When they do allow such invitation, then we will look forward to hearing thoughts!

Yes I am, Yes I was and no I can't and the reason is, I haven't been to an AGM, I've never asked to see them, why should I?? they are audited by an accountant, submitted to the HMRC (or what ever their name is this week).

At the moment I am just an everyday DJ, getting on with earning a living, but, I do have the bit between my teeth. Talking to other professional DJ's (not necessarily members of any Ass.), and the "top end" (for want of a better word) would like to lobby MP's to introduce a license that all entertainers (Cabaret, Muso's, DJ's), would have to apply for, be vetted, and buy, before they can perform to the public, but that's another story.



A two part answer to this one " Promote the Association", I have not seen any active post that states "Come and join us", I did it once and got told off, however there are the occasional posts that go out on every forum to pass information on. And your right, I don't post anywhere near as much as I used to, and that is accross all the forums, not just here. I will post if I feel there is a need because I am aware that seeing the same faces posting all the time can and will do more damage to a forum, Iam standing on the side letting the new blood in. Also, in the last year this forum is now so slow, I can go and make a cup of tea waiting for pages to load, and as for posting, about 2/3rds of my post never see the light of day. Then there's the Windows warning boxes that appear telling me about background / third party software running, but hey that life.

The benefits of NADJ have been discussed time and time again, you can do a search to find these, you can view the NADJ website and you can come along to local meetings (which are the biggest benefit to me and my business personally speaking) to find out more and chat to those DJs experiencing the benefits. I'm afraid there is currenly no Greek branch though :)

If you don't see the value in it, then thats your loss really but why rubbish the association by the constant negativity that seems to come across towards NADJ on this forum?

I don't believe that anyone is rubbishing the association, merely asking questions and stating points.

Dan, do you not agree that as service providers we need to stand and be counted?
It's great that you actively get involved in promoting the NADJ but the right image to the industry and our paying clients is surely in the same remit?

How long will it take to dispel the myth that DJU is considered good enough to advertise, plug and promote on, but not good enough to actually contribute on to the new and establishing service professionals?
Come on, stop pulling from the opposite end of the rope!

In relation to Mike's comment regarding third-party applications on this website, you can independently check this forum against malicious files or TPAs using an online recognised integrity checker such as McAfee site advisor and find that it is given a clean bill of health.

I'm not sure why Mike has waited till this thread to inform of us of a problem but, hey ho, he admits he is an old fart!

I agree, but don't see the relevance. There's room for both, I'm a big fan of DJ forums, but alot of DJs don't use them, nor do they even use the internet so they get more benefit from branch meetings, and so do I for certain things. I can't be shown a product demo on a forum, I can't talk and debate face to face, which is a world away from just reading opinions.



Nobody has said this, apart from you! And its not for me to answer, since I've been posting on here long since even knowing about NADJ.

Whatever their reasons, would you rather be kept in the dark about NADJ events? I'm sure if you were.. there'd be complaints about that to. Seeme to be a case of being damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I totally agree.
Forum members getting their questions answered from any association hierarchy would be a great step forward towards bettering the industry but may not actually be ideal in practice.

With this in mind, may I suggest that in the interests of such goals as bettering the perception of the industry, the associations elect an official forum spokesperson who preferably uses and enjoys the forum rather than just appearing when there is something to promote on behalf of their organisation.
Then, clearly those who have no time for forums or who do not make a practice of posting on them will have no need to put themselves out and of course minimising attitudes generally felt among the forum community.

It's about time there was cohesion and unity within the industry as Smithy indicated. Consider the two way street approach. As a service industry, we should indeed establish an accurate recognition of professionalism but there needs to be acknowledgement from those truly prepared to commit. Traffic has to flow both ways.

Following PMs received, I will clarify an earlier point further.
Long before the members joined, the rules were in place. Therefore, the rules will be given greater precedent.
Simply by being here and by using this forum, the user is showing the acceptance to follow the house rules.
Whilst users will choose to use this private forum, the rules in place are not an invitation for debate, and should not be taken as such.


The moderators are here to uphold the rules and ensure that the community remains free of troublesome members. Please respect and follow their advice. If you want a say in how this community is run, then we suggest that you first start following the rules, and become a model member, and lead by example. Then in time you may be asked to join the team.

Slow down, I haven't finished digesting the first post yet!!!!

Right profound statement time:
Forums are a bit of fun, they are a place were like minded people can chat, talk about problem etc ect. This is why they are so many forums (over 30 in the UK), different people fall into different groups. At this moment this forum has 4,6xx members, if everyone of those was an active poster, you would still only be looking at 0.5% of the DJ population (my source is Martin Lighting who early last year calculated that there are about 450,000 DJ's in the UK).

By the nature of what a forum is (in this sense), it will never achieve major changes within the industry, I saw this during the late 90's early 00's on the American forums and bar one, they have become either little secret societies making excuses as to why they can't be viewed by the world, or they have desimated themselves. I really thought that because the UK is smaller, and that we as a race are quite sensible, that everything would come together, OK hands up, I was wrong, we are heading down the same road, but only time will tell.

I used the term (In this sense) in the last para, I did so because I didn't want to get confused with the other types of forums which are made up of invited industry leaders to work out ways forward, mostly out of the gaze of the public eye.

We have followed the American lead in calling on-line chat boards "forums", yes they have a valuable use, in teaching each other little tricks and tips, but alias, in making a big noticable change to the industry, I think not, even the dear old NADJ are still along way away from cracking the ice that the MU and Equity cracked years ago. When the NADJ, or other professional body, reaches the 30,000 + membership level, then it will be noticed, until then it, like it's predecessors will be a voice in the wilderness, but, hey, 29,000 might sign up this year.

Now, I'm going to try and read the first post so that I know what this thread is all about!!!

I don't promote NADJ on here. If I tried my post would be moderated.
As a NADJ committee member, I am not welcome here, that is clear, so I take part in other forums in the time I have available to avoid abuse from faceless strangers with only antagonism and no point to make. I think that I am the only NADJ committee member that regularly uses forums, apart from Danno. Most of the NADJ committee members don't ever view the forums at all, so don't expect them on here, you'll be disappointed.

If you don't want to join NADJ, don't join. I cannot understand why anyone would want to slate an organisation that they don't want to join. Except for the fun of baiting..... another reason why NADJ visits are rare. Why are there different rules for NADJ and SEDA with regard to promoting meetings on here? Asked in the new DJU spirit of openness and inclusion, of course.

NADJ members can see the accounts in detail once they are finalised at the end of each year, non-members demanding such a right 'on behalf of members' - ha, whatever next?!

I pop on here every Sunday evening when I am at work and it is quiet enough for me to spend the time. I generally only look for any queries about licensing or the LWP. I shall continue to do so until I am asked not to.

I should point out, perhaps, that apart from answering licensing threads, all my posts on DJU, except in one thread about NADJ raised by another poster, have been giving advice/opinions/being helpful etc.

So its Sunday evening, I pop on here and, true to form, I see this thread - pinned for effect too! - whatever next?

Just to pick up on this, is a rep from Equity or the MU here??, I would to see a break down of their accounts, wages, jolly's abroad, slap up dinner's etc ect.

O.T. A silly question, why join the MU, when Equity is closer to what most DJ's do!!??

Slow down? It's hard to keep up!

Join the MU and read the detailed breakdown at own leisure! It's really interesting!



Phil, our forum has a report post facility which allows all members the option to report abuse from another member. Members of the moderation team are notified when a post is reported.
Members can also exercise the use of Private Messages (PMs) to alert a member of the moderation team.

Regarding the point made about rules of promotion of the associations, two things.
Firstly, we have never received a reply or response to the then olive branch extended to NADJ but did receive a reply from SEDA who had their own designated area of the forum.
As I stated, the entire idea has now been scrapped due to lack of use of these areas.
Secondly, we are more than happy to promote the events of third parties and associations so as long as it fits in with the commercial etiquette of this forum, and that these entities are happy to respect the rules in place of which their representatives agree to follow as signed up members.


Phil, DJU is not the bad guy and is not obstructive towards the associations.
There is plenty of free advertising within the community where events & meetings have been allowed to be publicised over the last 4 years - indeed DJU has offered far more goodwill to the various associations than has been clearly returned!



I do not know about the "demands such a right" comment? I asked Mikeee out of interest if he could either example or answer if members receive detailed information in a newsletter about a detailed breakdown of funding? Is this a demand? I don't think so, but could construe from fellow member comments regarding same question could perhaps be interpreted as being blunt but nonetheless a straight question. Thank you for answering as Mikeee admitted he could not answer truthfully!

If indeed the members of the forum today are the future members of your association tomorrow then I believe it to be prudent to keep an open mind and take on board some of the points or questions put that you may indeed find, as you put it, "antagonistic and with no point to make".
If you are not seen to be listening to all diversity then further and further questions will be raised that will undoubtedly query the diversity of membership you represent.

I have already stated the none of this is borne out of malice and is not intended to be attacking the NADJ.
By merely setting the record straight, making statements of fact to merely address the balance purely underlines crystal the boundaries under which we operate and protect the forum.
I offer no apologies for being loyal and indicating DJU is not a doormat anymore!

My thoughts (as made in the LWP thread) are that when certain information is witheld it's for a reason, usually not a good one. OK I'm not a member and quite frankly I don't give a monkey's how the NADJ spend their subscription money. The reason this has been brought up time and time again on this forum is that some of our members have considered joining but would like to know how their money will be spent.

Just to give you one example: many on here have heard that it funds/part funds trips to America for the committee or some members of it. I'm not saying for one minute that this has or hasn't happened but this is the kind of belief going around and by keeping their cards close to their chest there is nothing to dispell this belief.

Maybe it has happened and for a good reason too but by being cagey about the whole aspect of where the money goes only fuels these stories and hence the attitude of some on here towards the NADJ.

My ultimate loyalty is to the members of this forum - some of whom are also members of other associations - so when I (& Dan) receive messages from our members expressing their concerns about the actions of members of those associations (either in an official or unofficial capacity) then we are left with the choice of sitting back and doing nothing or using this forum to express those concerns/questions.


I would seriously question that figure - it means that 1 in every 140 of the population (inc babies) is a DJ and to put this into context Manchester alone has almost 43,000 DJs when this figure is used.

[quote]I don't promote NADJ on here. If I tried my post would be moderated.[/quote]

Only if any said post was against the forum rules of which you signed upto.

[quote]As a NADJ committee member, I am not welcome here, that is clear,[/quote]

Not at all - Perhaps , if you provided more input and involved yourself in other topics other than self promotion and LWP. you wouldnt feel the way you do?

[quote]so I take part in other forums in the time I have available to avoid abuse from faceless strangers with only antagonism and no point to make. [/quote]

i rest my case

[quote]I think that I am the only NADJ committee member that regularly uses forums, apart from Danno. Most of the NADJ committee members don't ever view the forums at all, so don't expect them on here, you'll be disappointed.[/quote]

NOT AT ALL

[quote]If you don't want to join NADJ, don't join. I cannot understand why anyone would want to slate an organisation that they don't want to join. Except for the fun of baiting..... another reason why NADJ visits are rare.[/quote]

No one is slating the NADJ - purely asking questions of what benefits etc - Oh which to this day and from all the posts on this thread - No one is able to answer ( SMOKE AND MIRRORS )

[quote]Why are there different rules for NADJ and SEDA with regard to promoting meetings on here? Asked in the new DJU spirit of openness and inclusion, of course[/quote]

No different rules at all - I think if you read through the forum AUP and also what is required then you can answer that yourself.

[quote]NADJ members can see the accounts in detail once they are finalised at the end of each year, non-members demanding such a right 'on behalf of members' - ha, whatever next?![/quote]

Again - Non members of your association of which may have an interest on joining - Cards getting close to the chest?

[quote]I pop on here every Sunday evening when I am at work and it is quiet enough for me to spend the time. I generally only look for any queries about licensing or the LWP. I shall continue to do so until I am asked not to.[/quote]

Again, Why not submit your views and comments on other matters - Again besdies self promotion? Or perhaps talking about the pros and cons of a certain piece of equipment is to far stretched for such an organisation?

[quote]I should point out, perhaps, that apart from answering licensing threads, all my posts on DJU, except in one thread about NADJ raised by another poster, have been giving advice/opinions/being helpful etc. [/quote]

Again - LWP and NADJ promotion - Even in a thread with no relevance to NADJ or the like.


[quote]So its Sunday evening, I pop on here and, true to form, I see this thread - pinned for effect too! - whatever next?[/quote]

Any concerns or issues you have with the organisation of any part of the forum can be addressed to a member of the Admin or Moderation team



Good Day to You

As someone still fairly new to this playing music caper, I don't belong to any associations partly through ignorance and partly through whats the point, what would i gain?

This "what will it do for me" type question is actually a very intertesting one, and indicitive to the UK.

So I put my thinking cap on, and went an looked at other "Associations" inc. AA, RAC, Knitting Guild etc, I think you can see were I'm coming from. When all the gloss and offers are put to one side, only one thing is the common denominator and that is ASSISTANCE, this is made up of Networking (meeting others in the same or associated industries), discounts, so on and so forth, but at the end of the day the word is ASSISTANCE, it can't do your job, it can't tell you how to do your job. It can assist you with information on new kit, new music, new regulations - keeping you legal. The iceing is the discounts, special offers etc. To my mind, something more than that is to be active at local level and government level. I think you get the idea of where I'm coming from.

A very good example, I believe is Danno 13, who's have a whale of a time with the local meeting in his area.

If im paying say 60 quid a year for something i am obviously going to want to know what it will give me.

networking? already do it locally

Discounts? dont really need any more kit but if i do i can pick stuff up off ebay for ridiculous prices

To be honest if i could see real tangible benefits I would consider joining but i cant see any tangible benefit that I would get that I havent got already and for free.

If this translates as "what do I get for my money?" this is hardly peculiar to the UK.

It's a universal thing when people are asked to spend money.

They want to know what they'll get for it.

And why not?

mikee i joined the aa because if my car breaks down i don't know enough about cars to fix it,(if my amp goes down at a gig would a member of nadj be on callout 24/7 i know a few local dj's that would help me through this forum)before joining i shoped around and asked questions what do i get for my money,what sort of service etc the same as i would do when taking out any subscription or buying anything.when buying most things i shop around and don't always buy it from the cheapest source but would evaluate the overall package including the saleperson.now quote phil cunningham "to avoid abuse from faceless strangers with only antagonism and no point to make" these facelist strangers are potential nadj members maybe sceptical but before supporting anything we want to know what you stand for and what are money is being spent on.maybe your committee would be better joining forums(not just this one) and showing us what kind of people are running nadj,embrace the forums and your membership might increase .
back to mikee quote" When all the gloss and offers are put to one side, only one thing is the common denominator and that is ASSISTANCE, this is made up of Networking (meeting others in the same or associated industries), discounts, so on and so forth, but at the end of the day the word is ASSISTANCE, it can't do your job, it can't tell you how to do your job. It can assist you with information on new kit, new music, new regulations - keeping you legal. The iceing is the discounts, special offers etc."
is this what i would get joining nadj , alittle disappointing because apart from the discounts i can get all the rest from this forum at what cost £000 per year .a real bargain.sorry if i sound sceptical i really don't want to, because a good organisation representing our needs would be benificial to all of us,especially at the moment with licensing issues going on.maybe nadj is it but i don't see or hear anything that makes me believe that unfortunately.
from a facelist stranger.

I do still have a few more points (mainly from members) to add to this discussion but it will take time to sort through the messages so that I only post what I have been given permission to and respect the anonymity of those who have contacted me.

In the meantime just in case Phil comes on-line before next Sunday I just want to say that topics about NADJ meetings have also been pinned until the day of the meeting - DJU supporting the NADJ - whatever next eh

Speaking as an outsider to both the NADJ & the DJU Admin staff, can I just say how childish this thread is beginning to appear

It is a bit...

Anyway, You don't have to join the NADJ, there's SEDA, DJA and DJA. If you classify yourself as a professional entertainer then it's Equity, there is a big choice out there.

I still haven't read the first post yet, I don't even know why it was started.

Hmmm very interesting thread.

I am surprised it hasn't been modearated

personally I think you should all just kiss and make up.... it does seem to be going nowhere.


nuff said by both sides I think

The thread has been deliberately placed in a non-public area so that we can hopefully allow our members to have this sorted once and for all. We have a lot of members who are not happy with the way the NADJ treat this forum (& other issues too). Some of these have already been posted here.

OK I agree that this is not the type of thread we would normally have on DJU but it's maybe because of this that things are now the way they are.

I appreciate that some members who care deeply about the NADJ and indeed others who couldn't care less would rather the thread disappear. The result would be further festering under the surface - ready to blow up at another time.

For a long time I have felt that DJU is treated with contempt by the NADJ - to be used as and when required but at other times to treat us, and questions from our members, like a bad rash. This is a feeling that is not unique to me and the consequence has been some aggressive and/or sarcastic posts from members of both DJU and the NADJ.

Let me add another concern - during the latter part of 2007 DJU members organised a meeting for DJs in East Anglia. Other forums also came on board for a very successful 'inter forum' meeting. Derek Pengelly attended by invitation and gave a talk on the benefits of joining the NADJ. The problem some of our members have with trying to organise a 2nd meeting is that the NADJ took it upon themselves to advertise it as a 'NADJ East Anglian branch meeting' on their website when this is not the case - now changed to 'Proposed NADJ Branch' which is still wide of the mark.

Several of our members boycotted the 1st meeting when they heard that the NADJ were to be involved and now they are aware of this NADJ claim are planning to organise their own EA meeting so that it can go ahead without the risk of NADJ (or any other organisations) involvement. If I were a member of the NADJ executive I would be concerned about this.

Why are some DJs so opposed to the NADJ? I can only guess that, like me, they are suspicious of an organisation which charges money yet keeps so much under wraps. I have already posted some of the other theories in an earlier post.

I would say to the NADJ committee - don't look on this as an attack on your organisation but as a chance to put the record straight, to quell the rumours and to convince those members of DJU who, for a number of reasons choose not to join, why they perhaps should consider it.

Knowing the membership of this forum quite well I would suggest that only straight answers will resolve this issue.

[Quote]Again, Why not submit your views and comments on other matters - Again besdies self promotion? Or perhaps talking about the pros and cons of a certain piece of equipment is to far stretched for such an organisation?

[quote]I should point out, perhaps, that apart from answering licensing threads, all my posts on DJU, except in one thread about NADJ raised by another poster, have been giving advice/opinions/being helpful etc. [/quote]

[Quote] Again - LWP and NADJ promotion - Even in a thread with no relevance to NADJ or the like.

Good grief. I can hardly believe I am reading this! If the moderators can't see how a post like this completely ignores what I have written, in fact completely ignores the truth (with regard to my input and advice on other threads) and then finishes with some mad paranoia that I mentioned the 'N acronym' which is somehow turned into promotion. You say this is not antagonism?

Now with all this childishness, ask yourself, why would any, except the DJU faithful, want to take part in this? I don't.

One last idea, don't even join 'N acronym' Send me a PM or email and I will invite you as my guest and you can come to the AGM and you will get all the information you seem to want so badly.



An appropriate reply would say - who on earth do DJU think they are some sort of industry ombudsman?

A second question might be - the original post said it was asking generally about associations and was targetting none in particular. Funny how you, Paul, have turned it into an 'interrogate NADJ' thread.

Why do I bother to reply on here when onlookers keep advising me not to rise to the bait but to be a politician and let it be? Perhaps because I thought I would give DJU one last chance to be the properly moderated, fair and impartial forum it purports to be. Perhaps DJU members should look closer to home when questions about transparency etc. are asked.

Anyway, I am offended by the insinuation that 'N acronym' somehow hide what they do for underhand reasons. You make it sound like those that give so generously of their time for the benefit or others have something to gain or hide. That is very, very worng and shame on DJU for alowing such posts. Members of any association are the people to call an association or its committee to book and I'm sure they would do if they had something to complain about

Dan will be laughing his socks off that I (and 'N acronym') are able to be insulted in such a way without a proper right to reply.

So, I have made an offer of an invite in another post. That stands. Otherwise LWP matters will be posted here by other LWP members and, once this thread is closed, I will stay off. (Cue loud cheers from certain DJU members)

Unfortunately it is late for those of us with new children and as such difficult to give this topic the reply it seems to deserve.

However, can I please set the record straight. As I ultimately became the initail organising front man of the first meeting, please can I put some facts on the table amongst what seems to be rather inaccurate comments and rumours!

1. NADJ were INVITED by myself to join a non-associated group meeting for the first time to discuss what involvement the NADJ "could" have in our region. They were certainly not invited to help form the EA NADJ branch and this has NEVER been the intention. The meet was the fist part of open and honest communication between fellow DJ's and an oportunity to take that away from the faceless internet. Thise who it has been suggested "stayed away" because of the NADJ invite both failed to let me know that they had a problem (either privately or on a public forum) and secondly missed out on something really good - those individuals loss not mine or the other guys who attended.

2. The ongoing development of anything in East Anglia will and always WAS intended to be a collective and democratic decision. I can only offer up my thanks to DJU and many many other internet forums who have allowed us to promote the first and now the second on the internet. It is not and never has been my intention to offer up any form of affiliation to anyone, let alone internet discussion groups until the collective group of DJ's actively involved in or attending meeting agrees a majority concensus and allows us to move forward. For what it's worth, NADJ have been nothing more than supportive and honest and open with me throughout.

3. For our industry to move forward, I firmly believe that we need to fordge new and exciting relationships with each other on a very personal and face to face basis. Internet forums and discussion groups such as this one and the many others are a wonderful communication and development too, but the real coal face work can only be done at a local and personal level. Like it or not, so far I can only see two organisations doing anything near this, SEDA and NADJ. The future MAY add another name into this, but we will see what the local guys in this area choose to do and the path THEY choose to take. The important thing for me and I hope the others involved is to get all the support, information and help to take the correct and right path and decisions for our region. Please allow us to do that!

Thats sadening to hear, especially as someone who has put countless hours into making improvements to the NADJ website including promoting various industry events such as the East Anglian DJ meet.

It's bizarre that some members would boycot the meeting simply due to the involvement of NADJ and I really can't see the logic or motives behind this, it just smacks of plain arrogance, ignorance and closed-mindedness to me and certainely not what this industry needs.. no matter what forum or association you're affiliated with.

If said persons are so upset then why has no-one emailed me (as webmaster) or any other committee member about their concerns? It's right there to see on the NADJ homepage that we're an open association and more than welcome feedback and ideas, good or bad.

This whole topic stemmed from the accusation that NADJ use this forum for promotion and nothing else. Yet, when we, as an association try to help promote a DJ meeting we face criticism and bad feeling and we don't even ask for anything in return!

No we are ordinary DJs


Like you Phil I am merely a spokesperson for the members who have asked me to speak on their behalf.


I await with interest your concerns on this



Again I am merely expressing the concerns/opinions of our members as passed to me - I made it clear that they might just be rumours etc but your refusal to respond to them will never quell them or convert more DJs to your organisation.

Once again you treat DJU members with contempt by failing to answer what are, for them, genuine concerns.



This thread has been purposely put where it is so that you can reply honestly & out of public view. Although all posts to it go into a Mod queue by default, none have been moderated and you not only have a full right to reply but it is welcomed so that we can try and resolve things to our members satisfaction.

And no I don't want to see you leave the forum - I would rather you stay, put our members concerns at rest and become an active member.

Whilst historically, the original statement of fact will remain, obviously whilst we do not live on a coin, there are two sides.

It has been suggested that DJU offers an apology to Phil, feeling rattled etc.

Openly, I will happily state here and offer a sincere apology to Phil on behalf of the forum if any member of the forum community has been abusive and insulting to his character which of course is out of order.

Personal abuse will not be tolerated on the forum. The moderation team and administrators take a dim view of such rule violations, dealing with reports of abuse confidentially and quickly.

It has been suggested that a member of the NADJ and of this forum is officially recognized as the spokesperson or liaison regarding NADJ matters.

As an ideal, with one person who is both an association representative and who regularly contributes to the community will hopefully reduce and lessen any "hostility" perceived or actual from forum members when questions are asked in relation to the association, and, such representative will be expected to use the forum facilities in place should they receive direct abusive PMs, etc - the moderation team are here to help.

Whilst an olive branch may not be seen to be ideal to accept, it is still nonetheless offerd in the same spirit as those extended before. Not a white flag, just a simple solution to a problem which needs to be resolved if wanted.

Please let there be no illusion that forum members are not permitted to promote their association meets on the forum. Quite the contrary!

Like SEDA, the NADJ have been permitted and already promote event meetings in the Event area.

Whilst the forum actively encourages and promotes its members to organize their own social meet-ups, if the designated area of this forum is abused or reported to be taken advantage of by anyone as a direct result of our time, goodwill and efforts - the area will simply be removed.

There is no monopoly on the mobile dj industry and indeed, we should all be working ideally together towards the solutions to the problems of identity and how to establish our true worth. Recognising the remit boundaries of organisations that should co-exist is one small step towards achieving this and requires little effort on both sides for sure.

Because there are DJ services who will want to be recognised for their professional standards, and those who will seek ways to hopefully help distance themselves from the amateur so that they can deliver quality and maintain reputations of high value to earn what is regarded as realistic, any organisation that focuses on such evident needs and provides a guide is absolutely great in my book and long may it continue.
Ultimately, the judge will be the one who feels happy with the level of help given, paid for or not.

This thread is getting very silly, and the only thing it is achieving is to get people rattled, which doesn't help this forum at all.

I have just read through the 7 pages of the Eastern meet thread on this forum and to be quite honest, I had to read parts of it several times as it does read as an "open" invite to NADJ, and if anyone said to Derek on the night, something like "that was great", or "we must do this again" or similar wording, I can see where any misunderstandings have come from.

I now need to go and read the Eastern Meet on the other forums, as I have been told thats were the problem lies. Thank you for the information Mr / Mrs / M/s Anon???

Probably not really my place to comment here, as I'm both fairly new, and only recently back into this profession. However, I would like to take some issue with some of the above points regarding "forums" or "chat boards". I DJ'ed from the mid 80's through to the mid 90's on a very regular basis, not full time, but often matching my daytime income. During that time I knew about four or five other mobile DJ's, and spoke regularly to two of them swapping ideas and sometimes gigs. Club DJ'ing I mixed in a slightly wider spread circle, but invariably worked the same nights with same group of DJ's.

In short, the vast majority of my DJ'ing has been "pre-internet". Last year, after a fair break of some years, I decided to dust off some equipment and have another play, big difference this time though. I would say that within a year frequenting forums such as this, I've had more interaction with other DJ's, and more importantly learnt more proffessionalism than I had in my previous fifteen years of DJ'ing. Internet forums, principally this one and one other have had a massive impact on the way I work, and I would imagine on my long term earning potential too.

It may well be that I would gain even more by joining a DJ association, and it's something I will look into over the coming months, but I believe it's very wrong to belittle what can be gained by proffesional people by "forums" such as this.

Hope this is not coming across as a dig mikee 'cos it's not intended to be, I've learnt from your posts as well as many others, but rather a contrasting opinion.

Last thing, as someone who runs a forum, and moderates on others (non DJ) I know what a truly difficult job and balancing act it can be, and why it is so important that there are clearly defined rules. I find this hard in spite of the fact that the forums I moderate on are not frequented by both people earning their living and those looking to hire them, that must make it all the harder.

The rules on private internet forums/boards are always the same, My site, My rules, your choice. It's the only way it can work.


Right, I'll leave this thread to those who know what they are talking about now

I see it as a chance to clear the air - for the NADJ to address the concerns of our members and to put things on an even keel for the future. Having it boil under the surface for any longer doesn't do either organisation any good


It's because of these 'misunderstandings' that this thread is here - let's clear them up and move on - we will achieve nothing by pretending that they don't exist or by sweeping them under the carpet.

I suggest we stop all the debate on why the thread is here or whether it should be here and concentrate on the issues that have been raised in it in the hope that we can clear them up to our members satisfaction.

i just read this in the nadj's chairmans letter
quote

�� I will ensure that NADJ will work ever more closely with other DJ associations in
order to provide, wherever possible, a united National voice speaking out on issues
affecting DJs of all kinds in 21st century Britain and Europe.
unquote

make of it what you will.

If they have genuine concerns perhaps they should raise them directly. I'm sure you wouldn't want to be in a position where you could be deemed to infulence any concerns due to the pre-moderation that exisits in this section of the forum (sorry.. but you call for honest debate, yet posting this in this secrion is ironic beyong belief)

In any case, such discussions are not for public display due to their private nature which you've confirmed by stating that these members have expressed concerns in privare rather than in direct communication to the NADJ committee.

At the risk of repeating myself - the topic is in this area so that it is not viewable to the public. By default all posts go in a Mod queue in this area however none have been edited (if they were an 'edited by' would appear at the bottom of the post).

So to all intents and purposes this is a private area where members can express their opinions and ask questions. Some of those questions I have put on behalf of our members (by request) but it doesn't make them any less important.

If you want to blame the messenger sobeit -but our members are looking for answers to their questions ...

ok guys, it is in this section purely so joe public cannot see what is for all intents and purposes a rift between differing opinions and views.
no other reason. i trust the mods implicitly in this.

also i cannot see the cause for such a rift.
lets look closely at the situation and points.

nadj charge a fee dju does not.

now immediately that will pre determine what each has in their own particular charter, it has to.

one has a source of income from it's members and must be seen to be accountable and transparent with it's accounts. it MUST be able to offer paying members tangible benefits over and above a non fee paying union.

now personally i have seen more postings and advice here at dju for free, the member list is larger and it seems the forum is more active.


the benefits i looked at on nadj re networking and discounts arent relevant to many people as the networking here is free and discounts can be obtained anywhere almost for cash or pricematching.
will i get a double discount for cash and also being a nadj member? i think not.

nadj is currently looking into insurance: will this be part of the membership package? or will it cost more on top? if more on top why go through nadj? go to the m.u. or dj guard.

i understand nadj has to protect itself as it is a fee charging organisation answerable to its members.

but dju is autonomous non affilliated and free. we are not bound by shackles or having to sweeten the pot to entice people to part with 40 or 50 sovs. we can be what we want how we want within the rules created by admin.

the networking oppurtunities here are as large as anywhere i have seen.
the advice is top notch, and the knowledge of most guys here is vast.
i
f we as dju decided to network properly and come up with a scheme where we could offer short notice cover for each other and support, we would rival any association in the country and we are free.

rambling a bit now.

but my point is , pay your money and take your choice.

i for one prefer to stay here , i am comforable with it, cant see the point in spending 50 smackers for what i get here for nothing.

value what we have here , join in, make this the model for dj forums everywhere . the sky is the limit.

Interesting read rictic, but I must point out that as a forum, we are merely an online community whereas the association has branches and builds upon the goodwill of the paying member to help it grow so that they can form more branches to enable their ever-growing membership to seek discounts and benefits to pass on to their membership, strength through unity and size, etc, etc....seek identity, etc, etc sort of thing.

Unlike on an online community, association members can physically meet the fellow members at the branch meeting and naturally swap advice and marketing ideas to help improve local market, as well as view invited retailers to peruse wares and purchase at discount, discuss DJ related subjects and even present own DJ show set-up to fellow DJs to swap ideas and seek ways of improving the presentation, rig set-up, health and safety issues, etc, etc, etc.
All great and conducted usually in a friendly atmosphere....etc, etc, etc

Whilst many members of the forum communities attend association meetings and hook up with those socially outside of the association environment, it has to be said that there are association members who are not online community members and have no intention of contributing. Some are happy to stay away, others are happy to register and access the forum as it suits. We do not turn them away!

But what the forum offers is clearly evident and members get from that what they put in.
Members of this forum can also set-up their own social meetings and establish their own local independent branch pretty much the same as an association branch. It need not have to be a subscription entity and can actually be very low cost.
Sure, we can offer and arrange group buys and in the past they were successful, and then some!
Yes, the sky is the limit, but lets not run away with the idea that DJU is the only entity out there with professional ideals. We all have a responsibility no matter who we are a member of to help shape and mould the direction of where we wish our profession to travel.
We are transparent and will happily answer questions if we possibly can.

What I would hope is that just as you would be expected to respect and follow the house rules of the association you visit or are invited to, the same common sense 'respect' is followed here and elsewhere in the virtual online communities.

Paul, had a look around the other forums. I can say that on the 30th May 2007 a person for the Eastern region had tried to get DJ's together for a meet up and hadn't suceeded and asked if perhaps the NADJ could help and perhaps form a branch.

A second thread started under the NADJ area of the forum in July 2007 to get a meeting up and running. On this forum the thread started in October.

So my conculsion would have to be as an independent reader, that the NADJ were running it.

Now on a different forum one person appears to have got the hump over a misunderstanding and started rattling their cage, thus creating a moutain out of a mole hill.

Old Soul, no problem with your comments, I never take anything personel, and I only ever say what I see.

[quote]i just read this in the nadj's chairmans letter
quote

�� I will ensure that NADJ will work ever more closely with other DJ associations in
order to provide, wherever possible, a united National voice speaking out on issues
affecting DJs of all kinds in 21st century Britain and Europe.
unquote

make of it what you will.
[/quote]

Without speaking to Phil or the committee I don't really know what it means, but my take would be that the EU are about to chuck a load more regulations at us, and / or the NADJ has been contacted by european associations or what ever.
What I believe is safe to say is, NADJ are now getting recognised in the right place's, and as such will be asked to comment and the replies, the same as those from the MU, Equity, Bectu et al, will affect everyone working in the industry. Now, love or hate the NADJ, that is your personnel privalage, they are acting for all DJ's, and I would rather that happen than one of the other organisations talking for DJ's, or even not acknowledging their existance, because it would not benefit their members.

If I hadn't been involved with NADJ, and I was on the outside and didn't like what they were doing, or how they were doing it, whatever, I would join and take them on from the inside, and stand for the committee so that I could make the changes. It's pointless whinging unless you are going to do something positive to make a change happen, it will take a lot of your time, and a good chunk of cash out of your pocket running around to meetings, but then, this is how success and recognition starts. And this is my humble opinion.

[quote]nadj is currently looking into insurance: will this be part of the membership package? or will it cost more on top? if more on top why go through nadj? go to the m.u. or dj guard.
[/quote]

This I think I can answer. NADJ does have a policy, I know, I started it. It is based on and as close to the MU policy as possible. We haven't got the same deal because the MU broker would not entertain it without the best part of 20,000 members signed up, so I had to find a broker that could do the £10M policy with less than 1,000 members, initial, until we proved ourselves we could only have £5M, but the company were happy to go to £10M. We still have restrictions on the policy (I believe) but once the membership increases they will probably disappear. Why is it not part of the membership, because of choice, allowing the member to choose, rather than saying you have to have, but it appears that is wrong as well. As I said, there are restrictions on the policy, as with all the other policies, the sensible thing to do is read the small print on all of them, and go for the one that suits you. I personnal have found another policy which I think will suit me better if I stay in this industry.

[quote]one has a source of income from it's members and must be seen to be accountable and transparent with it's accounts. it MUST be able to offer paying members tangible benefits over and above a non fee paying union.
[/quote]

If you are a member, the accounts are available. Benefits come with more members - it's a chicken and egg situation.

[quote]now personally i have seen more postings and advice here at dju for free, the member list is larger and it seems the forum is more active.[/quote]

All forums have lots of good posts, and bad ones, it depends on what information you want at that point in time. Which takes me back to forums being a fun and socialable place to be.

[quote]but my point is , pay your money and take your choice.
[/quote]

Absolutley, but if I needed help with a court case (or whatever, for whatever), I would look to a national body, rather than a "faceless" forum.
Ask Paul the question, as forum Admin, would you drop everything to support / help a DJU member in a court case in, say Brighton. The answer is probably NO, because it is a forum, it is a social meeting place, information passes and a great time is had by one and all. I think you get the idea of the point I'm trying to get over.

And I still haven't read the first post yet, anyway, time for bed - I hope

[quote]Interesting read rictic, but I must point out that as a forum, we are merely an online community whereas the association has branches and builds upon the goodwill of the paying member to help it grow so that they can form more branches to enable their ever-growing membership to seek discounts and benefits to pass on to their membership, strength through unity and size, etc, etc....seek identity, etc, etc sort of thing.

Unlike on an online community, association members can physically meet the fellow members at the branch meeting and naturally swap advice and marketing ideas to help improve local market, as well as view invited retailers to peruse wares and purchase at discount, discuss DJ related subjects and even present own DJ show set-up to fellow DJs to swap ideas and seek ways of improving the presentation, rig set-up, health and safety issues, etc, etc, etc.
All great and conducted usually in a friendly atmosphere....etc, etc, etc

Whilst many members of the forum communities attend association meetings and hook up with those socially outside of the association environment, it has to be said that there are association members who are not online community members and have no intention of contributing. Some are happy to stay away, others are happy to register and access the forum as it suits. We do not turn them away!
[/quote]

Thank you Dan