Whats your opinion on brand or 'badge snobbery'?

As a DJ, are you guilty of it?
Does it feature in our line of work?
Does it create a 'them and us' type of culture within our industry?

Imagine buying a car.
Your choice is a Renault or a Lexus for exactly the same amount of money. Both have a similar spec, both will do exactly the job that you require it to do.
Is it the same with disco equipment?
We all know the brands - Bose, Denon, Technics..... but we also know the cheaper versions - SoundLab, Gemini, Kam....
True, I will allow for the old saying of 'you get what you pay for'. I tell that to potential customers all the time (that's probably why they never call back ), but is the difference really that great?
Can you really justify a set of Denon CD decks for over a grand compared to a Gemini set for £250?
Bose L1 - good speakers, yes - they have their place, but what about the very high price compared to a set from Mackie or Wharfdale.
Microphones - Shure versus a cheap and cheerful from eBay. They both will do the same job, but the Shure will cost a few hindred more.

Are we guilty of becoming badge snobs just to get a top name that we can show off the same as you would a 'Nike' t-shirt or a pair of 501 jeans?
What is so wrong about going for the cheaper option that will do exactly the same for a fraction of the price?


*DISCLAIMER* This is not intended to be a Bose or Denon or any other expensive brand bashing thread.
It's only intention is to make you think and ponder the above questions.

I don't have any tendency towards any particular brand - I would expect to buy whatever equipment I needed at a particular price point. I wouldn't care whether it was an Ecler or a Fal, as long as it did the job to my satisfaction.

Brand loyalty mustn't be confused with 'badge snobbery', as the two are entirely different;

Brand loyalty is sticking with a brand which has given excellent reliability or brilliant customer service, and it makes good sense to stick with what is known.

There is also the issue of pride.
Again, this isn't badge snobbery, this is being proud of your gear, and this can only be good.

Badge snobbery is possibly where a bedroom DJ has a pair of Technics SL1210s to flash to his friends - not necessarily the case of course, but a likely scenario. The gear has been chosen simply because the owner wants it to be seen by others.

I wouldn't expect any half-serious mobile DJ to exhibit badge snobbery, as most will have grown out of that nonsense a long time ago, but will anyone here be honest enough to admit they currently suffer or have suffered this affliction??

I have used cheap kit and expensive kit, both have their own merits,
i had an expensive cd system that never lasted longer than a cheap system, but a cheap microphone has never lasted for me,
I'm not that bothered about a badge, all i'm interested in is value for money
have fun
wayne

I think that in some cases you do get what you pay for (Technics SL12xx decks being fine examples of something that are just 'worth' every penny), you can also get good cheap stuff (some Behringer stuff like the Ultradrive is obscenely good value for money)

My speakers are home built but they are loaded with the finest drivers (for the application, not just the finest drivers available - big difference), because in that department, you tend to get what you pay for. I also use expensive amps because of the after sales support/turnaround if something goes wrong, and they perform very well under stress which cheaper amps simply don't do (and won't trust them to do).

I'm slowly changing all of my lighting over to Martin and Robe, partly because they tend to just be better than the cheaper stuff, but also, overall, they cost less as their residual value is much higher when it comes to dispose of them.

Also it means when someone specs a light for a job, you are able to supply a commonly accepted unit amongst venues,/light jocks, etc









And i'm a snob.....

Personally I could not give a toss about 'Badges' What I do care about is reliability and value for money.

For me this means research before I purchase any item. Then where possible I demo or get hands on experience.

I was blindingly faithful to Landrover for nearly 23 yrs and thought that little niggles, wiring faults, oil leaks and breakdown, were par for the course owning 4x4's Then I got fed up and bought Toyota.

Jim

Iany, you appear to be a troubled person at the moment - badges mean nothing in the average work place, I run Citronic Kit, OK the new stuff is made in outer mongolia, so what, it does what it says on the box, and no complants. In some respects there is a lot of emphais put on kit for no reason at all in the "average" market place - what is your market place?? Do you need the Bose system or will a pair of Skytec 1x15" cabs do the job just as well?? At the end of the day, only you have the answers, you know the market you work in.

No mikeee, quite the opposite.
I've only posted these last two threads to get people thinking a little bit deeper. A bit more philosophical if you will.
Read some past threads about top brands and look at some of the comments.
People sing the praises of top brand goods, but at the end of the day, do these goods represent value for money and top flight performance, or is it an extension of a person who only wants 'designer labels'?
If something is purchased just because its the most expensive available at the time, would that make you a badge snob?

No, I'm not troubled at all. The medication is keeping me well under control at the moment. I just though it'd be nice to start a thread that makes people go 'Hmmmm.....' and think.

From experience, regardless of the badge name the kit of course has to be reliable, useful and of course VFM. I need to be able to use it and ensure that the qualities of the product is appreciated not just by me as a useful tool, but passed on as a service benefit to the end client.
I try not to compromise the quality of the systems used by connecting equipment that produce poor quality sound, for example, so I try and compare and try again before I finally buy.
No point in connecting a high quality mixer to a poor audio system and visa versa.
Regardless of low-mid or mid-high badge name, no matter what amount of investment you throw at a piece of kit, the best judges on the service delivered rather than the product used by far will always be the clients / audience 'entertained'.

I don't pay any attention to the name of the brand. I buy the gear that I need to do the job and the price I can afford to pay.

I bought mackie speakers because in my opinion they sound better than warrior oy skytec, and were within my price range.

I use a numark mixer because I could not see any justification spending the extra on something more expensive, and it does the job with ease, and was highly rated by other users.

I bought EVL spin lights because of ratings from other fellow dj's who recommended them, and because they were again within my budget.

I don't care about the name of the brand. It means nothing. I am only interested in something that does the job well.

In buying something, I search the internet, using google looking for reviews from other DJ's. If the review is poor, I don't buy it.

The same goes for anything else I buy.

Brands mean nothing to me anymore, as i have learnt over time. I have a pair of Numark dual CD players that have been loyal to me for a good 5 years, and have been on my rig, constantly for 3 years. They have taken a real hammering, including falling out of vans, etc.. they have only ever had one service, and yet they still run sweet and sound. Fantastic players.

I use both, a 'cheap' Behringer or Mackie mixer (about £60 each) that supply the Bose, I buy equipment because it does what I want it to do, never owned a Shure microphone, but have about 6 Behringer ones and a couple of AKG WMS40 Radio mics, value for money, over badges.

Most of the time you get what you pay for....As with badges clients have never heard of Denon, Mackie, peavey etc...

I used a cheap cd player before I purchased my denons...You can tell the difference in quality just by pressing the play button. As with my mixer. You can feel the quality by pushing the slider up and down. Also they sound alot better..

Denon are known for quality build, hence why you pay a little more.

Interesting thread.... but is anyone really going to own up to brand snobbery.

I have recently been upgrading my kit... the first part was a Crest amp....it's great coupled with my Carlsbro speakers...... not a great combination in many peoples eyes and I was going to upgrade to a JBL mpro setup.........but I have had loads of compliments of the quality of the sound over the last couple of months so I am thinking why bother !! consequently the Carlsbro are staying

Just before xmas i had to by a new mixer very quickly so got a cheap £125 numark from a local dealer with the intention of after xmas replacing it with a new denon..... I am again thinking why bother I am still getting compliments ( and repeat bookings ) so the cheapo numark is staying... It has all the facilities I need and does a good job...... yes a Denon may have better sound quality but will any customers notice......I think not.

I have a gemini twin cd player which has played everything I have thrown at it for the last couple of years...brilliant piece of kit for about £200 ......I would probably replace with the same.

My lighting is mainly Cheauvet....definately at the cheaper end of the market.... but in my opinion has vastly improved over the last few years........... excllent value for money and extremely reliable IMHO.

However it is I believe useful to have well known names to "throw" at the customer

It aint what you have.... it's what you do with it that counts or so I keep telling the wife....

Quote:
"However it is I believe useful to have well known names to "throw" at the customer"

Don't agree with that one, if it's OK with you.

I doubt the average client would know their Citronic from their Crown, to be honest. I've never mentioned any equipment manufacturers to any of my customers, and have never felt the need to.
I currently use Citronic, Numark, Gemini, Shure, Studiomaster, Vestax, Martin, Pulsar, BK Electronics, Fane, Van Damme, Neutrik...... Which ones do I mention??

Totally Agree!

Fair quote Andy !

I Think it has been well documented throughout many forums, as Dj's are basically 'Boys & their toys' we are all guilty at times of over inflated EGO'S and this DOES reflect upon badge snobbery with our kit !
BUT as Andy fairly states 9 times out of 10 the customer wouldnt know Soundlab from Mackie.

I don't go for badges or labels in life in general to be honest. I've always been that way. I don't follow everyone else like a sheep and like my own style and what suits me. I do it with clothes, cars and I adopt the same ethic to some extent with my equipment.

Over the past year I have spent a lot of money building up my stuff. I must admit that I have always used Shure Mics and so I made sure I got a couple of them. I went for a Gemini UX radio mic and that has been spot on. I have various mixers by Numark, Denon, Pioneer and Behringer and I must say that the Pioneer is by far the best and the Behringer the worst IN MY OPINION, for various reasons, It was around the same as the Numark yet it's not half as good.
I use CD Players by Pioneer, Numark and Denon and by far the best again are the Pioneers.
My Speakers as I have mentioned are a mix of JBL (Passive) and Gemini and DB Tech (Actives) and the best in my opinion out of the actives are the DB Tech's. Finally, my lights are a mix of Abstract, Source and Martin and although the Source ones are classed as cheap, I have never had a problem with any of them and they are just as good as the Martin and Abstract ones.

Yes, if you can afford to go for top notch stuff straight away then fair enough but I think it's all trial and error. It's all personal experience too. I know I wouldn't go out and buy another Behringer mixer because I don't think it's that great but that's my opinion. I'm always building up my stuff and it's been hard work getting it all. In the past year I have built up my stuff from almost nothing to now having quite a bit of kit. I haven't gone out and bought stuff because it has a certain name or because someone has said YOU MUST HAVE this or that...If I am going to make mistakes then I will I'm sure but so far, everything I have got is good FOR ME.

I will say though that THIS PLACE helped a lot when I wanted to buy my JBL package and the advice was great. I'd say that they have been my best purchase so far.

I agree, i had a client come upto me at a gig once and asked one question about my equipment once, even after 30secs this fella looked confused, thanked me for my time and headed back to the bar! In my experience Most clients and joey P wouln't know their brands, all they care about is Professionalism and NICE SOUND, OOOH PRETTY LIGHTS!! ;p

Im about to start a complete overhaul of my Disco, doesn't need it but im looking to the middle-top ranges for my own personal gratifacation as in the past my budget as always kept me at the middle-lower end.

I'm not knocking the cheaper gear as it has served me well and people always come up at the end of the evening to say how good it looks/sounds im just doin it for me - hope this isn't the start of small man syndrome!

I bought my CD players last year purely because they are the industry standard (CDJ1000MK3). I could have bought cheaper ones that would do almost exactly the same job but i wanted the best and also wanted to be able to walk into any club and know that (almost all) will have the same gear that i have and i'll know my way around it instantly. If i was a mobile DJ then i probably would have got cheaper ones.

Theres only a few things the customer really understands and will comment on........

1 how good dj are you ie play the right stuff at the right times and your mic work etc

2 how good the sound is from a quality point of view (nothing worse than a tin pot sound imo)

3 how much you charge

4 neatness of your rig (especially for high end functions like weddings)

everything else like badges and best speakers and best lights and best this and best that doesnt matter to them i reckon


If you get repeat bookings from same venue or people from the last gig youve done....youve cracked it!! No matter what stuff you perform with!



Although I am guilty of a bit of snobbery at times with a few items of my kit.....


But isnt that "built in" to us all in one way or another........sort of tecnical minds, love of electronic lights and gadgets, players etc and a love of performing mixed together makes us the kind of people that want to please an audience, and therefore want the best kit we can afford and sometimes the "badges" have just got to be purchased!!

Of course it's ok to disagree..... that's what this place is al about !! The only reason I mentioned it was that several people have asked me over the last few weeks ( and in the past ) what Gear I used...... when I told them the reply was... yes I have heard of that.... that's good stuff. Which to be honest at the time I mentioned Carlsbro speakers...... which by a lot of peoples opinions aint the best in the world. But... It got me the booking wwhen they thought I had quality kit...which was what they were after someone with quality gear..... lets face it ..... what Disco website doesnt say " professional equipment" .... now there is an over used phrase
Strangely mention some of the better names crown etc and the punters have never heard of it..next time they ask I will have to say Amstrad and see what the response is

I don't think that the customer really minds how the evening runs smoothly...(and nor should they)...just so long as it does run smoothly.

Theres no denying that some equipment can help either the running, or the atmosphere (and other things) of some gigs.

For example...if the sound at a show is interupted with an audible POP! everytime the DJ switches a lighting effect on or off, then thats something that a customer (and all the guests, and the venue staff) would notice. It makes no difference to them however that the units causing the problem are made by some £75 a pair chinese-sweat-shop, available-under-10-different-manufacturer-badges, or whether the pops are some high-end, top of the range lighting thats just poorly maintained. To the customer et all, its an annoying Pop!

Over time, or through the exeriences of ourselves, or others, we as DJs and forum members cant help but to build up a picture in our own minds of which items work well, and which items seem to give trouble.

Its very easy to fall into the stupid trap of tarring the entire past, present and future product range of a particular manufacturer, from even a minor bad experience with one product. eg: "The headlight control relay went on my Ford Cortina Mk4...ARGH I'll never buy another Ford ever ever ever, (stomp stomp, stomp....)". Crazy (but terribly common).

In true, "benefit of the doubt" mode, I bought a CD carry case 6 months ago...it was "unbranded" when I bought it mail-order. When it arrived, it turned out to be made by KAM. My inital reaction was to break open the little packet of Silca Gel inside the box and wave the crystals under my nose, hoping that they might act as smelling salts. However, I then recalled that, despite the terrible reputation that Kam used to have, some of the newer Kam mixers were being praised by their owners. So, rather than sending it back, I kept it...as I say...benefit of the doubt and all that...

Now, 6 months later, I realise that as far as 200 capacity CD cases go... The Kam ones are a waste of money. 4 months ago, the rubber feet fell off. 2 months ago, the gel-grip handle lost its gel-like filling, and since mid-December, one of the corner-fittings has lot two of its 3 screws. Maybe I got the one-off, one in a million, friday afternoon jobby...maybe its an isolated lemon. I wouldnt recommend another one of these particular cases to anyone, but...it doesnt mean that every other item that Kam sell is lousy.

I don't tend to like or hate a product because of its badge, or brand - I tend to need particular evidence of specific models being good or bad.

I would say that i look at what i can get for my money some people would say that the most expensive is the best and it might be as you do get what you pay for. but having said that i would not dismiss something just because it was cheap i would check the brand with you guys on here

I am not sure a customer will care about who makes you equipment because most people do not use it everyday so do not care we as DJ want good lights etc but one that does not eat bulbs or breakdown every other week

As for cars i would say that i would pick the badge there is a massive difference between Jaguar and skoda but there is also a massive difference in price.

Unfortunately the customer that might have heard of a brand name won't necessarily have the knowledge to know whether its any good or not, just that they HAVE heard of it. (and in many cases the more often they have heard it, the better they think it is)

If you quote names like Behringer, Carlsbro, Wharfedale, etc then you're likely to get a nod at some point. Mention Klarke Technic, BSS, XTA, ASS, etc and you're very likely not to.

Oh, I don't know, Jaguar is Ford, and Skoda is Volkswagen/Audi Group........(Or were you extolling the virtues of Skoda???)

I mentioned a couple of brand names to test this on Saturday as the client showed an interest in the rig setup and the immediate answer from the client was "Doesn't one of them make car speakers?"

To which I would have said: Quite possibly, but don't you want quality sound from your car stereo as well!?

And to be honest, many years ago, I bought some shelf speakers for home, single cone, full suspension units. Took everything you could throw at them, still sounded great. Some unknown Scandinavian brand. Didn't give up until a friend shoved them through a PA Amp. Found out they were from a manufacturer of door speakers!!!!

Like someone said, it's not all about what is the most expensive means that it's the best. Ok, yes you do pay for quality and someone mentioned to me on saturday that he also likes JBL but has a mate that swears by RCF, I commented that if his mate could afford RCF then good luck to him. Yes, in an ideal world we would all want the best of the best of what's out there but people like myself who have big plans but are still relatively new as a business aren't going to go all out and get the best stuff. Maybe I'm lucky, I've had a cracking first year in business and over time my equipment will improve. If it was just me on my own then I would've probably gone about things in a different way but my idea is to have other people out working too using my set ups. I don't want them using rubbish but then again, I don't want them using my best stuff.

I think it also works with advertising too. Sometimes the biggest and flashiest advert isn't always the best. Some people out there think the biggest is the most expensive and the small one liners are the cheapest so they go for the middle ground ones.

I don't know whether it's brand snobbery or not, but I definitely prefer using certain brands than others. I think they help me to play better. So, even though the customer might not know who Denon are, they can tell the difference in the way I play.

Case in point, Friday night I played a gig and used the club's own kit. Simple things were missing which are available on my Denons (and other kit like Pioneers), for example master key control. Also, I couldn't guarantee that when I hit play, the tune would start immediately (there was a random delay). This meant that I couldn't do some mixes (where I bring in the new tune so it is audible from the start).

So, I think that sometimes what seems to be brand snobbery is not actually snobbery, but looking for a certain level of performance.

You mention Pioneers...I love my Pioneers and they haven't let me down since I have had them (about 6 years), in fact they haven't even had a service as yet...Anyway, before I brought the Pioneers, I brought some Soundlabs which were more or less poor copies at half the price. the quality was there but simple things like looping and instant start/stop etc were nowhere near as good. At the time I was resident at a venue out of town and although they had their own Denons etc, I would take my coffin case as I was used to MY stuff. When I got the Soundlabs I was all excited and then realised that my mixing was suffering because the decks weren't as good...I know a few people may say that they can mix on anything and yes, I can too (a workman never blames his tools etc etc) but I found myself coping with what I had until I had the money to get the Pioneers and I never looked back as they were head and shoulders above the Soundlabs.

Sorry, but I don't subscribe to the branded is best philosophy at least not as far as reliability goes!, and i've found this out several times, over all kinds of products that a good brand = flawless and faultless service is a falicy many times, usually to my cost.

To take the car brand analogy earlier as an example, both my own vehicle and the one that I use at work are German manufactured and are supposed to have a reputation for reliability and satisfaction of ownership. Unfortunately, more toys and gadgets usually means that there are more components to go wrong and that its more expensive to diagnose and rectify when it happens, and in my experience that is far more often than the two UK manufactured cars which I owned before.....hardly a week goes by without some warning light coming on they may as well just paint pound signs on these indicators. .

My experience of disco equipment was much the same, I have told several times of my experiences of a certain 2000-F dual CD player which spent more time in the workshop than it did out on the road, compared to a lowly budget manufactured Soundlab player costing very little which handled the abuse of hire for many years without encountering any problems whatsoever. Providing you don't need, the bells and whistles and the features, judge for yourself which gave the most value for money on a £ by £ basis. The pioneer which I didn't own but used in a residency wasn't exactly the last word in reliability either!. But then again, how you look after your kit also applies into the equation too.

Of course, I could just be unlucky, I am sure that there are many DJs owning branded equipment that have never had issues, but to say that buying branded equipment will grant you exclusive rights to a club where nobody has any problems with their equipment now or in the future, sadly is a myth, as a quick search of the technical area of the forum will prove. To my knowledge no manufacturer gives a lifetime warranty on their products.

Unfortunately the cost of parts and ownership also increases as does servicing on 'Brands' too. Back to the car analogy once again, I've just paid £600 for a catalytic convertor which was a dealer only part, compared to £200 for the same component for a previousy owned model which could be fitted by Kwik Fit. At the end of the day they do the same job, you just get stung on the 'brand' itself and dealer labour and this seems to apply to any goods carrying a name.

The same applies to consumables on Branded AV equipment. A replacement fader on a Maplin Mixer could be available off the shelf from RS or Farnell for a fiver whilst the branded version may use a penny and giles part which involves a three week lead time and open wallet surgery.

Since the late 90's I have been using mid-range brands (Ohm, Stageline, McGregor, NJD, Constella etc) they are not budget names, but then again they are certainly not the most expensive or 'branded' either. They are just unassuming pieces of kit that fall under neither banner but do the job gig in gig out without any expensive repairs or catastrophic failures either and that suits me down the ground - thats my choice.

But like the majority, I have access to back up equipment for the most vulnerable equipment, and that should apply whether you pay a lot or a little for your kit.

very good point.

from what i have read on a number of these threads, this is one issue which is overlooked. look after your gear, and it will look after you!