here we go again another stupid question im afraid,following on from another post no that not all dj's use them since joining this forum i have found out not all the advice we have been given is sound as we find out whats wrong we correct it,such as you dont need pat testing,you'll be the only one around with pli you dont need it,and now safety chains are only for really heavy lights.i have seen then on your rigs ads but never got round to asking about them.so i need about 10 safety chains before our next gig ,its not for a while so i havent got to rush out tomorrow.
so what do i need to look for the heaviest lights we have is a star blade roller which we hardly ever use then its a wild blaze . are longer ones better or smaller ones on small rigs,any make to avoid dont have tobe the cheapest but not gold platted either just good quality at reasonable price what do you recommend.
i am not knocking the people that gave us the advice because it works for them and with out there help jamie would be still in his bedroom(where he is now)dreaming of being a dj,so we are grateful to them for the help they gave him setting up(non of them are on this forum)
thanks for your patience
andy

sorry, english , is, not, my, strongest, subject,shall i send you some paracetamols.
if you come to one of our gigs before i get the chains and you could get a really bad headache.
andy

Safety chains? - they don't cost much, and they certainly don't do any harm so you've got nothing to lose and everything to gain by using them.

Given that we know from other threads that clamps can fail, bolts can shear and plastic bits can give way - all at the wrong moment!, then even if there is nobody underneath the least they can do is save your expensive effects from damage.

For a few quid, not a bad investement.

Every unit I have has a safety chain on it, they cost about a fiver each, so not worth NOT having them on.

Like CP says I use a strong G clamp, which in turn is screwed to the trussing, so nearly impossible to come away from the rig, but I keep a chain on there too.

My No2 son did a 2 year performing arts technical course at Liverpool, and now occasionaly works at the Liverpool Philharmonic on the sound & lighting.

He tells me that chains are no longer acceptable for insurance purposes and that it has to be cables now.

He says this is because chain manufacturers will not certify their chains to be able to stand a specified weight.

I can't say if this is correct or not, but he's quite adamant about it.

Well you can certainly use chains rather than cables but they should be to the appropriate standard for the intended use. Certified chain is of the Welded Link variety, but of course steel rope is lighter and more discrete (and cheaper) and is usually certified as standard unlike your average piece of chain. You cant just nip to B & Q and get something intended to hang a flower pot off a trellis.

If a light or speaker did fall and injure someone, any HSE investigation may, or may not rule that you were negligent in not using a safety device...it's very much a case by case thing. It's the same with PAT testing and plug-top RCD's etc. And someone could knock your speaker stand over and get crushed...you're not expected to bolt it through the floor.

As an example, if you knew beforehand that a stripper were to come onto the dancefloor and wave her bra about, you may be advised to have safeties on in case one gets swiped off by the whirling lingerie. However if you've taken all reasonable steps to ensure the safety of the public in the circumstances then I can't see the problem; if your DJ show is well away from the public (eg on a stage) and a falling light is unlikely to hit anyone, then you should be OK.

It's a similar thing with noise limiters on sound systems....some disco's are definitely loud enough to cause hearing damage....the crux is proving that a particular DJ played too loud and was negligent in causing your deafness.

Comes back to risk assessments. The subject has been raised several times before. Risk assessments are about Looking at the possible outcomes and risks and then taking reasonable steps to prevent or reduce the risks.

I.E

Risk. Lighting falling from overhead stand
Risk. HIGH. Slipping or failure of light supporting stand, clamp or bracket could cause equipment damage, possible injury or death.

How can the risk be reduced.

Use manufacturers recommended clamps for stand. Use safety cables. Perform regular inspection and maintaince of lighting brackets, Stands, Clamps and safety cables. Do not use faulty or damaged equipment. Follow manufacturers recommendations for use of stands, clamps, lights and safety cables.

outcome of assessment.

Risk. LOW

This is only an example but very similar to what you will use. The risk assessment form is posted somewhere on this site.

Jimbo

Risk Assessment Info here if it helps:

HSE Risk Assessment

im looking at the ones from maplins,the 25cm ones are £2.99 are they ok for what i need,is there any reason i should get the longer ones which are 80cm long and only £3.49

These??

If so, they are exactly the same as the ones I use, and are actually plastic coated steel wire, with a quick connect system. They are fine, I've used them for years

25cm are okay for the majority of lighting effects. Measure the drop between the t-bar overhead and the lighting effect bracket when its in position to be 100% certain.

Or buy the longer ones and wrap them around the trussing.

yes thats the ones,problably get the longer ones and wrap around like andy says
thanks for the help

Does anyone know if you can get these in black? (continuing my disco theme!)

Here you go westy...
These are the type that I use.
It says on his site that cables are a legal requirement - not sure if thats 100% or not, but whats it matter for a few quid?

5 Safety Cables

Ian.

No they're not a legal requirement per se, (unless Mr Prescott has introduced them recently), most nightclubs and pubs dont have them, though theatres tend to because people are meant to walk under the light truss all the time, theatre lights are very high up and very heavy and the LD will often adjust a light by tickling it with a long pole.

Although it varies, most manufacturers seem to recommend a safety cable with a breaking capacity of ten times the weight of the fixture.

thanks ian just bought 2 lots,
andy

One of the assessments i make is whether the fixture is to be hung where it might be capable of actually hitting someone and trying to ensure that in most deployments they're not. Then i ascertain whether a chain is needed (normally just for the fixtures safety in event of fall)

Chains are only as good as how you use them. Its no use putting a chain around the u bracket on a light, as if a bolt shears, you'll be left with a bracket still in the roof and a light on the floor or hanging from the power cable. Some lights come with additional fixing points for cables/chains and these should be used instead.

Some of the effects I wish to hang from a truss comes in at 7Kg and 16Kg.

The manufactuers manual recommends use of a safety cable that can hold at least 10 times the weight of the fixture.

When weights are mentioned with the safety cables I have found such as mentioned in this thread they dont come close to 10x.

Can someone advise where I can get the appropriate safety cables?

Thanks
Tim

Are people missing one major point here?

Only more high end fixtures from my experience have anchor points for safety chains. So if you guys are wrapping around the bracket you are wasting your money as the fixtures own bracket is more likely to fail (due to frequent stress from adjustment) than the G clamp hanging it. FACT.

Result, small piece of metal bracket still happily chained to rig (along with its main fixing method). Lighting fixture with sheered bolts on floor in pieces... or worse!

Suppose i was always a bit naughty reallt and daring.

Never used safety chains on the average gigs,

Only time i used them was at a massive event for support to a INXS tribute show, And the only reason i used them ..... cos the man in the overalls and carrying a clipboard told me to.

I suppose its each to there own,

Well like I said, many nightclubs with high ceilings still dont use safety wires etc, preferring to use quality locking truss clamps and nylock bolts that are unlikely to come off. Reading the instruction manuals of light effects will usually reveal the manufacturer recommending a 'secondary' means of support... 'should the primary means fail'. The term 'covering ones back' seems the most likely motivation here.

Quick release safeties are perhaps more pertinent to mobile jocks whose equipment has necessarily to be more readily detached for transport.

One of the main points for using a safety chain is if the nut and bolt come loose... So even if a safety chain was round the bracket it would stop the fall!

Yes better on a secondary fitting.

Whilst it may not be "LAW".. I think you will find that without a safety chain you could be seen to not have assessed the risk and be negligent. ( same way the directors of rail track were). You have a duty to assess the risk and act accordingly.

Yep, its a Nanny state but that's England

Yep, this is why resurrected threads from over a year ago don't really cut it!! :S

My opinions on H&S have changed significantly since then (see my recent posts on clamps, etc)

Now, everything gets secondary fixing regardless, using a properly rated safety bond (not chain as the chain end fixings are not often tested and are potentially 'the weak link')