Moral Dilemma - Drink Driving

[McCardle 1]

We did the drugs dilemma at the start of the year, but how about something which may be just as common, if not more so, and potentially a danger to others?.

 

Scenario:-

 

You have been gigging at a Wedding, later, at the end of the function, when you come to collect your car / van from the car park there is a guest staggering about trying to get into their car with an aim to driving themselves and other family members home. Its clear from his manner and also his behaviour on the dancefloor and during the function that he has consumed a huge amount of alcohol and in your opinion, probably unsafe to drive.

 

What would you do?.

[flash911 0]

thats an easy one for me. . ring the police give them the details once he is in the car. I have been to too many rtc's involving drunk drivers and its always the innocents that get hurt/killed :lil devil:

Edited December 31, 2008 by flash911

[vokf 0]

I think I'd go with the above... - ie call the police. I doubt they would get to the car park before he'd left though, so the risk is that he would be driving on roads.

 

I did consider chatting with the guy, but I would end up getting too involved and I couldn't think of a good outcome! I suspect I'd get told to "sod off", or worse...

 

 

[DJ JENX 0]

 

 

Id be ringing 999 (or one of the local boys i know if i knew they were on duty) to inform them of the situation whilst observing.

 

Id wait for him to get into the drivers seat, and id simply introduce myself and nick him.

 

Id wait for the boys to turn up and id hand him over, grab a statement form to take home, pop in next morning to drop it off and bobs your uncle.

 

I dont advise this for most as it can easily turn bad, you have to judge it correctly.

 

If you think they would get violent or you wouldnt be able to take on the 90 wedding guests, ring the police. As long as your prepared to provide a statement and go to court then there is no problem with just ringing them.

 

Id have no moral problem. I hate drink drivers as i have lost friends to these idiots.

 

Its no longer socially acceptable to drink drive. It used to be years ago, but now the younger generation espeically hate it.

 

 

[Kingy 0]

Whilst I do not condone drinking & driving at all, you could ring the police, but nothing will be done about it. It would PROBABLY graded as a standard responce call, if officers are available someone will be dispatched, if not, someone will come when available. By which time he/she will have gone. That is , of course if he/she ACTUALLY drives the vehicle.

 

And there is no power of Citizens Arrest for this offence. So don't do it. You could end up being prosecuted.

 

Block them in? What if they bump your car, love to read the insurance claim on that one.

 

And as a "special" you could end up with egg on your face if you arrest him on suspicion of ATTEMPTING to drive whilst unfit through drink or drugs. Where is your proof? Think about the powers you have carefully.

 

No, my honest advice is whilst I find it totally un-acceptable, ringing the Police is your only option. If a posative breath test is provided there would be no need to go to court. Statement could be useful, but the CPS will utilise the arresting officers statement to prosecute with anyhow. The only evidence you have is the reading supplied by the defendant, no matter what you think you have.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Kingy

[DJ JENX 0]

Ive been in this situation once before, not exactly as described, but I was walking my dog and passing a pub whereby a man was stumbling to the car drunk.

 

I rang the police and a car was there within a minute before the guy started the car, he was arrested for being drunk in charge.

 

Oh and Kingy, as you know, police have no powers of arrest for the majority of traffic offenses whilst "off duty" or not in uniform, however, there is another offense here, drunk in a public place, for which the initial arrest could be made of course. ;) Means and ways

[Kingy 0]

Ive been in this situation once before, not exactly as described, but I was walking my dog and passing a pub whereby a man was stumbling to the car drunk.

 

I rang the police and a car was there within a minute before the guy started the car, he was arrested for being drunk in charge.

 

Very fortunate.

 

And most unlikely in the West Midlands, believe me.

 

So at what stage would you arrest for being drunk in charge?

And do you need to be in uniform to do this?

Edited December 31, 2008 by Kingy

[DJ JENX 0]

Very fortunate.

 

And most unlikely in the West Midlands, believe me.

 

So at what stage would you arrest for being drunk in charge?

And do you need to be in uniform to do this?

 

If i was on duty, i just wait for someone to enter the car in possession of keys. Usually enough. Depends on circumstances of course and locations.

[Kingy 0]

Ive been in this situation once before, not exactly as described, but I was walking my dog and passing a pub whereby a man was stumbling to the car drunk.

 

I rang the police and a car was there within a minute before the guy started the car, he was arrested for being drunk in charge.

 

Oh and Kingy, as you know, police have no powers of arrest for the majority of traffic offenses whilst "off duty" or not in uniform, however, there is another offense here, drunk in a public place, for which the initial arrest could be made of course. ;) Means and ways

 

Think we are off at another tangent here.

Dont forget the powers under PACE for proof of service for summary offences. That is why people usually get locked up for motoring offences.

 

Think I will move on now. tongue out icon

[DJ JENX 0]

With regard to uniform, yes I would, as would a full time PC for the motoring offense.

 

I have the power of arrest equal to a PC as a SC. However whilst off duty i revert to citisens powers. I do have the option to book my self on at any time. As long as im in my force area, or a neighbouring force area

[flash911 0]

With regard to uniform, yes I would, as would a full time PC for the motoring offense.

 

I have the power of arrest equal to a PC as a SC. However whilst off duty i revert to citisens powers. I do have the option to book my self on at any time. As long as im in my force area, or a neighbouring force area

 

 

wish i had those powers. i'd cut them out then nick em lol

[Dukesy 0]

Received in an email a while back:

 

I went to a party,

 

And remembered what you said.

You told me not to drink, Mum

So I had a sprite instead.

 

I felt proud of myself,

 

The way you said I would,

That I didn't drink and drive,

Though some friends said I should.

 

I made a healthy choice,

 

And your advice to me was right,

The party finally ended,

And the kids drove out of sight.

I got into my car,

 

Sure to get home in one piece,

I never knew what was coming, Mum

Something I expected least.

 

Now I'm lying on the pavement,

 

And I hear the policeman say,

The kid that caused this wreck was drunk,

Mum, his voice seems far away.

 

My own blood's all around me,

 

As I try hard not to cry.

I can hear the paramedic say,

This girl is going to die.

 

I'm sure the guy had no idea,

 

While he was flying high,

Because he chose to drink and drive,

Now I would have to die.

 

So why do people do it, Mum

 

Knowing that it ruins lives?

And now the pain is cutting me,

Like a hundred stabbing knives.

 

Someone should have taught him,

 

That it's wrong to drink and drive.

Maybe if his parents had,

I'd still be alive.

 

My breath is getting shorter, Mum

 

I'm getting really scared.

These are my final moments,

And I'm so unprepared.

I wish that you could hold me Mum,

 

As I lie here and die.

I wish that I could say, 'I love you, Mum!'

So I love you and good-bye.

[McCardle 1]

Well reading that has cheered me up no end :scared:

[flash911 0]

ive seen it before but it still gets me

[danger mouse 0]

makes me wonder if you had a camper van had a few beers and a barb b que for example and was sleeping in it could you be arrested for being in charge of yr vehicle while over the limit without driving it.

[Kingy 0]

makes me wonder if you had a camper van had a few beers and a barb b que for example and was sleeping in it could you be arrested for being in charge of yr vehicle while over the limit without driving it.

 

Technically, yes. Although if the awning was attached there would probably be little chance of you driving off!! tongue out icon

Edited January 1, 2009 by Kingy

[danger mouse 0]

what about if you were over the limit and decided and to sleep in your seven seater with no thought of driving it just a place to bed down as you were stranded or something and you hid the keys just in case the police came round and wanted to arrest you on a technicality , :hide:

[Kingy 0]

Just because you do not have the keys on your person does not mean you are not in charge of the vehicle.

There was a test case about this years ago.

[Dukesy 0]

Just because you do not have the keys on your person does not mean you are not in charge of the vehicle.

 

This might seem like a silly question, but say the wife (please...don't ask!) is not the owner of the vehicle and does not drive or have a driving licence but is with the vehicle. Would she be considered in charge of the vehicle if she was with the vehicle and I was not around? Sorry!

[danger mouse 0]

prob unlikley though i hope , theres one thing drink driving, but sometimes it seems to get a bit silly, i heard once a guy left his fags in his car at the pub and openend it just to get them .Police came round and he got arrested for being in possesion of vehicle over the limit , not sure how true it was though

[supersound dj 0]

makes me wonder if you had a camper van had a few beers and a barb b que for example and was sleeping in it could you be arrested for being in charge of yr vehicle while over the limit without driving it.

 

 

Now thats a good point.

 

I think it comes under intention to drive.eg keys in the ignition ect.

 

Only guessing tho

 

Paul

[Kingy 0]

This might seem like a silly question, but say the wife (please...don't ask!) is not the owner of the vehicle and does not drive or have a driving licence but is with the vehicle. Would she be considered in charge of the vehicle if she was with the vehicle and I was not around? Sorry!

 

I think you need to prove intent in this case. Careful questioning in an informal way would give you a general indication of the likely action she (or anyone) was likely to be intending to do.

 

After speaking to her, you could always observe from a discrete distance and see what is going to happen.

 

From my experience I think the most important thing here would be a common sence approach. :shrug:

 

ooh, and preperation is considered to be the final act before committing the offence. Figure that one...

Edited January 2, 2009 by Kingy

[milhouse 0]

With regard to uniform, yes I would, as would a full time PC for the motoring offense.

 

I have the power of arrest equal to a PC as a SC. However whilst off duty i revert to citisens powers. I do have the option to book my self on at any time. As long as im in my force area, or a neighbouring force area

 

Are you a Special Constable DJ Jenx? You should know that as of quite a while ago you now have police powers all over England and Wales. You even have all your powers off duty. However whether you intervene when off duty is something we need to carefully risk assess :)

 

Whilst I do not condone drinking & driving at all, you could ring the police, but nothing will be done about it. It would PROBABLY graded as a standard responce call, if officers are available someone will be dispatched, if not, someone will come when available. By which time he/she will have gone. That is , of course if he/she ACTUALLY drives the vehicle.

 

Just to re-assure you, I'm not sure what experience you have had with the police in your area but "nothing will be done about it" is not the case in my force area. If you provide the police with a VRM they will often go to the registered keeper's address and wait for them if they have driven off. If they are attempting to drive, a local or traffic patrol will often Grade One to an incident of such type as there is a risk to the public if they drive. I have worked for the police for 3 years and this has happened countless times. Obviously if everyone is tied up then the response will be slower, but the job is given out as soon as it comes in. The issue is, if the individual causes an accident and it comes to light that someone had pre-warned the police to their driving, there would be issues if they had not given the job out to patrols straight away.

 

And there is no power of Citizens Arrest for this offence. So don't do it. You could end up being prosecuted.

 

Block them in? What if they bump your car, love to read the insurance claim on that one.

 

And as a "special" you could end up with egg on your face if you arrest him on suspicion of ATTEMPTING to drive whilst unfit through drink or drugs. Where is your proof? Think about the powers you have carefully.

 

You don't need to carry out a road side breath test to suspect they are under the influence. Seeing them drink or their behaviour and actions can be enough to arrest them. Special constables have the same powers as Police constables. Not sure if you are getting confused with PCSO's? If they are attempting to get in their drivers side; putting the keys in, without actually driving, then the offence would be in charge of a motor vehicle whilst over the prescribed limit. Perfectly arrestable until a patrol comes by an off duty officer. You can always de-arrest if the roadside test is carried out and they are under the limit. Suspicion is enough to arrest.

 

Just my two pence worth as a serving officer

Edited January 2, 2009 by JonWhittaker

[Kingy 0]

Are you a Special Constable DJ Jenx? You should know that as of quite a while ago you now have police powers all over England and Wales. You even have all your powers off duty. However whether you intervene when off duty is something we need to carefully risk assess :)

Just to re-assure you, I'm not sure what experience you have had with the police in your area but "nothing will be done about it" is not the case in my force area. If you provide the police with a VRM they will often go to the registered keeper's address and wait for them if they have driven off. If they are attempting to drive, a local or traffic patrol will often Grade One to an incident of such type as there is a risk to the public if they drive. I have worked for the police for 3 years and this has happened countless times. Obviously if everyone is tied up then the response will be slower, but the job is given out as soon as it comes in. The issue is, if the individual causes an accident and it comes to light that someone had pre-warned the police to their driving, there would be issues if they had not given the job out to patrols straight away.

You don't need to carry out a road side breath test to suspect they are under the influence. Seeing them drink or their behaviour and actions can be enough to arrest them. Special constables have the same powers as Police constables. Not sure if you are getting confused with PCSO's? If they are attempting to get in their drivers side; putting the keys in, without actually driving, then the offence would be in charge of a motor vehicle whilst over the prescribed limit. Perfectly arrestable until a patrol comes by an off duty officer. You can always de-arrest if the roadside test is carried out and they are under the limit. Suspicion is enough to arrest.

 

Just my two pence worth as a serving officer

 

I too was a special for 4 years and a full time PC qualified to Sgt for 5+ years before I left.

 

Hmmm. . sending a car to the registered keepers address just in case? Lets hope he doesn't visit his GF or the local curry house then or that will have tied up a resource pointlessly when we are not even sure he has committed any offences. Jumping the gun a bit.

 

Different forces have differing policies with regards to immediate, standard and low priority responces. Immediate is for IMMEDIATE Threat to life & property, Injury RTA, RTA where the carriageway is blocked, violence offences, juvenille problems and offences where an offender is to hand. Standard is for offences which have happened and are not so serious and routine is for minor offences which do not constitute any immediate danger.I am fairly sure that the basis of these responces come from the Home office. If the circumstances as outlined in the original post were the basis of the call it would be a standard responce.

 

Please also remember that in this country we have a Police force which has no power to carry out random breath testing, such road blocks are illegal. The way that this is circumnavigated is to do a road block vehicle and driver check. You set up a road block looking for general motoring problems (no tax, insurance, dizzy drivers, vehicle defects etc). During these checks it is normal to ask if the driver has consumed any intoxicants. If the answer is one or just a shandy, then you have suspicion that they may be over the limit. Glazed eyes, slurred speech, unsteady demeanour and the smell of intoxicants on the breath are all signs which could indicate this, but alone are not conclusive. Importantly, in evidence, all you POlice Officers out there, note that you do not say that the drivers breath smelled of Alcohol. Alcohol has no smell, use the word intoxicants. (There was a test case revolving around this and the defendant was cleared at crown because of an Officers innocent mistake!)

 

You say seeing them drink is enough?? What if it was "alcohol free" lager? Just lemonade and not Gin & Tonic? Get my gist?

 

Their behaviour and actions...to a degree I agree, but that alone is nothing to do with the original post. Imagine this scenario: A man is walking across a pub carpark in what appears to be an unsteady manner to his car. He opens the car door and gets in. You think he is drunk, so you approach and detain him whilst you are off duty (as a special or as a full timer!!) whilst calling for assistance. It transpires that the man in question had a deformity of his knee joints and although not needing sticks, can walk in a strange fashion and has a full UK driving licence. He decides to prosecute you for wrongful arrest. Given the above scenario, give me the basis of your defence case. That is why you need to speak to the driver. Who knows, he may have a speech impediment too but the IQ of Steven Hawking.

 

 

You are quite correct in the definition of being in charge. I would question the power you assume you have whilst off duty to detain someone on suspicion of a motoring offence. And remember that arresting on the street and de-arresting is frowned upon. You really leave yourself open to a compliant and the HO are very much against this course of action.

 

I am certainly not confused with regards to PCSO powers.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Kingy