Denon Hd-2500

[EdBray 0]

Thomann have started listing a price for the Denon DN-HD2500 £663.30

[DJ Marky Marc 0]

I had my hands on one tonight at the seda meeting ......................................................

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lets just say "YOU ALL SHOULD GET ONE" :nbow:

[RichardP 0]

Me too, thought it was pretty nice!

 

Couple of questions I thought about on the way home were:

 

(a) If the unit is connected to a PC via USB, does the HD2500's internal hard drive attach itself as a new drive letter to the PC (ie. using Windows Removable Hard Drive support) as if I had just connected an ordinary external USB hard drive?

 

(b) originally there was word about other file type support apart from mp3/wav, such as FLAC (and OGG) - is that ever going to happen do we know?

[Gary 0]

(a) If the unit is connected to a PC via USB, does the HD2500's internal hard drive attach itself as a new drive letter to the PC (ie. using Windows Removable Hard Drive support) as if I had just connected an ordinary external USB hard drive?

 

I haven't tried this, so can't offer an instant answer, plus the unit that I managed to beg for previewing at SEDA for yesterday was collected from me this morning (at a disgusting hour, considering I didnt get to bed after SEA until 3am) is now winging its way to France.

 

I will however get an answer.

 

 

(b) originally there was word about other file type support apart from mp3/wav, such as FLAC (and OGG) - is that ever going to happen do we know?

 

There's always the option, via user-installable firmware updates for new file formats to be aded. However, there are no longer any current file format additions in the pipeline to my knowledge. The DN-HD2500 offers an uncompressed format (wav) with metatag data support, and a compressed file format (mp3 upto to a hearty 320kbps). Many of the other compressd file formats are much of a muchness, compared to mp3 - and the rapidly plummeting cost of hard drive capacity means that wav format is finally a very valid option for all.

 

For example: in rich, uncompressed WAV format, you could store around 1195 songs on the internal drive, and approx 14942 songs on a 500gb external drive (currently £119 on ebuyer)... that's over 16000 wav files tracks Alternatively, for those happy wih mp3@320kbps, that's well over 50,000 tracks

on the internal and a 500gb external.

 

But... who knows what the future holds, a different/additional file format could be offered via update.

Edited January 22, 2007 by Gary

[RobbieD 0]

However, there are no longer any current file format additions in the pipeline to my knowledge. The DN-HD2500 offers an uncompressed format (wav) with metatag data support, and a compressed file format (mp3 upto to a hearty 320kbps).

No FLAC? I'm surprised at that. Especially considering that FLAC decoding takes less processor resources than MP3 decoding (but more than WAV "decoding").

 

It sounds like Denon have dropped the ball on this one. I should have known that the DN-HD2500 sounded too good to be true! I think I'll have to also look at the Numark D2 Director again.

 

But "wav with metatag data support" sounds interesting. I didn't think you could use tags with wav files. That was the main advantage of FLAC for me - that it has tags. (The smaller file sizes were also useful, but not as important as tags.)

 

Can you tell us more about "wav with metatag data support", or point us to a link on this format?

For example: in rich, uncompressed WAV format, you could store around 1195 songs on the internal drive, and approx 14942 songs on a 500gb external drive (currently £119 on ebuyer)... that's over 16000 wav files tracks Alternatively, for those happy wih mp3@320kbps, that's well over 50,000 tracks on the internal and a 500gb external.

My plan was to go for an external hard drive of WAV or FLAC files, and then duplicates of the same tracks in MP3 format on the internal drive in case of external drive failure.

 

[Gary 0]

There are a few music library type pc programs out there which support WAV tags, one of the most powerful being Mediamonkey, which has been supporting WAV tags for a while now. Mediamonkey pulls tag data from all the usual on-line sources and tags files with them.

 

Also worth noting is that the DN-HD2500 creates its own file/track database on the internal harddrive and/or each device that is connected - eg: if you plug in an external disc drive with 2145 files on it, a database is created on that same drive, with 2145 entries in the database - this is how the DN-HD2500 surprised many at the SEDA preview last night with its -instant- display of tracks, when a particular artist was selected. This database holds more data than just artist name and songtitle, as the searches are just as fast when searching by other fields eg: year, album, bpm etc. At worst (50,000 tracks) the database only takes up 15mb (about 2 decent mp3 tracks worth) of disc spce.

 

Remember also, that the DN-HD2500 will be supplied with PC software which allows data to be moved from PC to the '2500 - although I haven't had a play with that pc software yet.

 

So, searching by tags on a mass-used uncompressed music standard is there, without having to use extra (and quit different) processing to decode FLAC files.

 

As I mentioned previously, recognition of different file formats hasn't been ruled out, and the user-upgradable firmware would certainly act as a conduit for such upgrades. However, at the moment, there's nothing in the pipeline for flac support via the user-upgradable firmware.

[Eskie 0]

Me too, thought it was pretty nice!

 

Didn't realise you were there Rich!... am now wondering who else from here was there last night that I didn't realise!

Must admit this Denon product does seem very good. Personally though I won't be rushing into buying one. I want to see the reactions of the first owners after the first few months and see what their thoughts are on the various DJ forums. Additionally I'd be surprised if there aren't new models out over the next year or so as a result of the users suggestions/reactions, and while this Mk 1 model is extremely good, I have a feeling that Mk 2 or 3 will be near ideal.

 

[RobbieD 0]

Additionally I'd be surprised if there aren't new models out over the next year or so as a result of the users suggestions/reactions, and while this Mk 1 model is extremely good, I have a feeling that Mk 2 or 3 will be near ideal.

Yep. Ideally a single table top with rotating platter - DN-S-HD3500 with larger display, or ability to connect a VGA monitor.

 

[Gary 0]

Yep. Ideally a single table top with rotating platter - DN-S-HD3500 with larger display, or ability to connect a VGA monitor.

 

The DN-HD2500 is, of course, unlike to be the last DJ player ever made, so, yes of course theres the possiblilty of a new model coming out x years/xx months. Then again, just like I'm finding myself at the moment with new cars, I could sit here wondering what Vauxhall, Ford, Toyota, Renault etc have got up their sleeves for 2008....hold oiut, wait'n'see...and then do exactly the same thing in 2008...still driving my current model around between A and B. The same "hold on, or buy now" seeps into many different consumer products...HD Ready TV is another example.

 

Where Denon users find a very usefull "blending of the edges" with regard to the hard lines between a MK1 and a MK2 etc...is benefit of the user upgradable enhancements - these can add years of usability to the life and versatility of a unit. Making the differences between "this years model" and perhaps some "maybe" model 2 or 3 years down the line, a lot smaller a jump.

 

 

[DJ Marky Marc 0]

with larger display, or ability to connect a VGA monitor.

 

why would you want to lug a monitor arround ???? its all in front of you on the small display and very clear...

[PEDJ 0]

Prevent squinting?!

Maybe some DJs prefer a larger screen display to a little one like some DJs prefer bigger speakers than smaller ones!

Ho! Ho! Ho! :xmas:

[RonanRaver 0]

Squinting depends on how many times you yank your own chain :toot:

[ChrisPointon 0]

Moving swiftly back on topic......... tongue out icon

 

All very exciting this new technology, but I can't help feeling that the

enjoyment and flexibility of owning such a unit (or similar) could so easily be shortlived when it comes to finding out how much ownership costs in real terms when the current licensing situation is taken into account, and these additional costs could actually in a lot of cases place them entirely out of the range of a lot of mobile DJ's budgets within the UK.

 

I am surprised that this subject hasn't cropped up in this thread already because in reality it could make the difference between being able to afford one, and being priced out of the market by copyright laws and the huge paperwork requirement which it carries.

 

So much interest has been put into discussing the price of the actual

hardware, when it appears that the ANNUAL cost of owning / licensing such a

device is already some £400 a year more than the initial Thomann price for

the unit itself and is ongoing and NOT a one off payment!!!

 

By now, you should be aware that you need permission to convert your CD's

and Vinyl to hard drive format regardless of the type of file as it has been debated enough. This

permission has to be gained from the MCPS in the form of the much publicised but user unfriendly, SG-6. Whether you are using a laptop / PC or a hard drive based physical hardware player is totally irrelevant! , these laws are still applicable.

 

As the Denon has quietly appealed to me for some months, but being one of lifes natural pessimists I have taken the time since to take a close look at the small print on the MCPS website and I don't much like the expense and hassle which the SG-6 brings.

 

All of my information has come directly from the MCPS website on the SG6

page. I'll address each area of the text which I feel would be relevant to me, if I bought one.

 

What does the Licence allow you to do?

 

The incorporation of that recording (or the incorporation of an existing

recording) into the server or hard disk

 

Okay so we are left in no doubt that the SG-6 applies to the Denon unit

because it uses a hard drive / disk as a storage medium, and you will be converting your existing physical media to a file format to be stored on it. No surprises there, we always knew that one or more licenses would be required.

 

 

The SG6 Specialist Music Product Licence does not apply to the

following, for which separate licences and/or approval would be required:

 

Any products where the sound recording copyright owner or performer(s) have

not given permission for the relevant copies to be created and/or exploited

 

Okay this is not so good, because it means even after you have paid and

applied for the SG-6, it is not valid or legal unless you have contacted

each and every artist of the tracks that you intend to convert and gained

their individual permission to convert it. So would it be safe to assume that 5000 tracks requires 5000 letters?. Anybody know the cost of airmail per letter to the U.S or where Danni Minogue is living these days?

 

Now we've bought shares in the Royal Mail we move on to the cost of the

license itself.

 

How much does a Licence cost

 

Upto 5,000 tracks on server - £1,000

Over 5,000 tracks on server - negotiable :scared:

 

Again, not good at all. This is an annual fee and not a one off fee.

So for the flexibility of storing a mere 5000 tracks on a Hard Drive it is

going to cost you £1000 a year - every year for the MCPS current SG-6 license. So your

first years' license fee is actually going to be more than the player itself.

 

More importantly most DJ's have over 5000 tracks, so how much for 10k, 15k, 20k tracks. The mid thousands?

 

Other areas relevant are:-

 

Other conditions of the licence

 

Licensees are responsible for ensuring the security of the audio and/or

audio-visual content on any server, to prevent their unauthorised removal,

fraudulent replacement or corruption in any way, by the application of

appropriate watermarking and encryption technologies.

 

Does the Denon have the facility to encrypt or Watermark the tracks on its

harddrive?. If not then it possibly will not meet the criteria required for an SG-6.

 

 

Licensees are required to provide returns within 30 days of the end

of each calendar Quarter, using the SG6 reporting format (provided as an

Excel spreadsheet in response to your initial application), detailing which

works have been supplied, the number of times each work has been supplied

within the Quarter and the type of track or product supplied, as per the

above table.

 

Does the Denon also have the facility to log how many times each track is

played. I know that some DJ Software does offer this facility. Again another

area where the SG-6 in its current form is restrictive towards new technology. Your

time is going to be spent physically logging every track you play from the

unit, at every gig you attend, blimey thats even worse than basic bookeeping for your accounts.

 

The SG-6 information and criteria above is sourced from:-

 

Here

 

 

Now the good news is that the MCPS are supposedly introducing a new license

to serve Mobile Dj's and to replace the requirement of the SG-6 in this

application. But when this is going to happen is anybodies guess - it was supposed to be launched around now.

 

Also, exaclty how much, per year the licence will cost, what if it is still £1000 a year? would this put anybody off ownership of the Denon, Ipod or other similar players?. Currently there is no mention of this

new license on the news or main areas of the MCPS website - not a good sign.

 

So for now, ownership of the Denon and similar products still comes with the much hated dated SG-6.

 

:hurt:

[Gary 0]

So for now, ownership of the Denon and similar products still comes with the much hated dated SG-6.

 

:hurt:

 

 

Indeed, anything with a hard drive, be it the Denon DN-HD2500, a laptop, a flightcased PC, iPod, etc etc, will all get treated one-and-the-same eg: They all store music on a hard drive.

 

 

Roll on the SG-7....or whatever they're gonna call it.... at a sensible annual fee. Or...alternatively...they should extend the "get out of mud free card" which the BPI gave when they announced in June 2006 that they wouldnt pursue (as a pirate) anyone who moved their own legit music from a music source, to their ipod/mp3 player.

 

[DJ Marky Marc 0]

Indeed, anything with a hard drive, be it the Denon DN-HD2500, a laptop, a flightcased PC, iPod, etc

 

Plenty of talk about laptops/pc djing software but when offered the chance it go legal with Digital DJ licence you all poke holes and bitch about the cost..

 

There is nothing stoping you all from playing CD's

 

or forget the licence and take the risk...

 

If mcps or ppl come to a gig ill play cds with my hd2500..... :ads:

[McCardle 1]

but when offered the chance it go legal with Digital DJ licence you all poke holes and bitch about the cost..

 

What has the digital dj licence got to do with the m.c.p.s?. Anybody who feels that they are fully legal by buying only a digital dj licence are misinformed you also need the licence from the mcps.

[Tonsk 0]

McCardle, I thought you only needed the SG6 licence if you wanted to convert your own CDs/Vinyl into a file stored on a hard drive.

 

If you download every track on the hardrive from a legit source, you only need the Digital DJ Licence to play it out to the public.

 

Am I wrong?

[Gary 0]

Plenty of talk about laptops/pc djing software but when offered the chance it go legal with Digital DJ licence you all poke holes and bitch about the cost..

 

There is nothing stoping you all from playing CD's

 

or forget the licence and take the risk...

 

If mcps or ppl come to a gig ill play cds with my hd2500..... :ads:

 

 

Actually, you might have a point there...the DN-HD2500 does look just like a dual CD-Deck...you might just talk your way outta that.

 

As for people complaining about the cost, I've seen at least three, different types of response.

 

1) The license is a great idea, and about the right price - it just needs small changes to encompass all (or at least the majority of) scenarios which DJs work in.

 

2) The license is great, but is around double the price that might be considered reasonable. This train of thought is common to, but not exclusive to, newbie or start-up DJs, who...lets face it, have a load of other start-up costs at that time.

 

3) I'm not buying one, even if it were 1p a year...

[spinner 0]

Actually, you might have a point there...the DN-HD2500 does look just like a dual CD-Deck...you might just talk your way outta that.

 

 

 

As a point of interest, the Numark HDCD1, with 80gb hard drive, is now under £600 at Thomann.

[digitaldistortion 0]

I find it odd that people (loose description) are attacking Chris for what I consider to be a very well thought out problem, and incidentally one that most PC DJs are loathe to address or even think about.

Chris isn't attacking the format or the unit itself, he's just pointing out some of the problems associated with it.

To be honest, thats the one major problem that I face: I refuse to pay what amounts to big bucks for the license that I decide is the correct one...only to find that there are still no digital licenses that 1) Do what it says on the can, 2) Don't cost stupid money, and 3) Don't involve some utterly ridiculous method of 'obtaining permission'

[DJ Marky Marc 0]

find it odd that people (loose description) are attacking Chris for what I consider to be a very well thought out problem

 

No ones attacking chris.... :dan+ju:

 

 

[D.X 0]

Actually, you might have a point there...the DN-HD2500 does look just like a dual CD-Deck...you might just talk your way outta that.

 

As for people complaining about the cost, I've seen at least three, different types of response.

 

1) The license is a great idea, and about the right price - it just needs small changes to encompass all (or at least the majority of) scenarios which DJs work in.

 

2) The license is great, but is around double the price that might be considered reasonable. This train of thought is common to, but not exclusive to, newbie or start-up DJs, who...lets face it, have a load of other start-up costs at that time.

 

3) I'm not buying one, even if it were 1p a year...

 

 

You can add mine to that list.

 

We shouldn't have to pay these vultures a penny for any kind of license. We pay for the music and should be able to play it when and where we like. If this means the music industry only makes £20bn profit instead of £25bn then tough luck for them, they'll just have to buy a BMW instead of a Ferrari !

 

Meanwhile, Job Bloggs DJ scrimps and saves just to feed his family and live a half decent life. These people make me sick.

[ChrisPointon 0]

My post was / is aimed towards those who wish to remain on the right side of the copyright laws, and to publicise the cost of doing so. It wasn't an attempt to get those who want to have their cake and eat it, and who go about these things in their own sweet way to change as I am not trying to reinvent the wheel here, i'm just pointing out the associated costs, some of which other members may not even be aware of.

 

If you don't like the law, or can't afford to comply with it, then as previously mentioned, perhaps you should choose to use another 'safe' format which doesn't carry such financial penalities, and in return avoid the threads which debate an area, which doesn't apply to you rather than posting a argumentum ad hominem style reply.

 

However that doesn't change the fact that the UK copyright law penalises DJ's far more than most other countries, indeed it wasn't that long ago that a member was abroad for some weeks and posted back more than once on the fact that many clubs and bars there were already heavily geared towards some form of hard drive based storage & playback medium. Same music, same artist(e), same record label. I guess they don't have the same copyright laws as in the UK.

 

I think that given the UK's mentality there is always going to be the requirement of a form of licence, perhaps eventually to the point where all media is chargeable, however maybe those who write the copyright laws should be reminded that a lot of DJ's only earn a tiny percentage of the types of income that those of whom they represent may earn.

[D.X 0]

Thomann have started listing a price for the Denon DN-HD2500 £663.30

Would the UK customs slap a load of tax on it though if you tried to import it to England ?

[DJ Marky Marc 0]

Would the UK customs slap a load of tax on it though if you tried to import it to England ?

 

Being a common market and part of the EC you would think not and ive never been stung for anything more than the local VAT rate which is 19% in germany I think but dont quote me on that......

 

however I think UK customes make it up as they go along sometimes...